G7 Power 900L 9W LED bulbs

[DavidD]

Does anyone have experience with the 900 Lumen, Warm White, 9W LED bulb by G7 Power?

I purchased 3 from Amazon to try out. These are the first 100 lumen/watt bulbs I have seen. They claim to be 65W replacements in all fixtures, and 75W replacements in down-facing fixtures. And from what I can tell, those numbers seem to be accurate despite the fact that my Kill-A-Watt says they only use approximately 7W.

I don't know if that means they are really only putting out 700 lumens, or if their efficiency is greater than 100 L/W. But in comparing them to other 450L - 800L LED bulbs, and CFLs, they appear to be 65-75W replacements at only 7W used.

I paid $16US each for these, which puts them in the middle of others I have seen/purchased.

These are not dimmable, are only 3000K, and have >75 CRI. So if you need dimmable, 2700K or high CRI, then they won't work for you.

Some of the amazon reviews mentioned a buzzing sound. Mine have been in service for about 2 weeks, and my family has not heard any buzzing. They have a lifetime warranty. If the bulb ever quits working, send it back (cost of shipping?) for a free replacement. Box claims 'No Buzzing' or 'No Humming' (can't remember which, and can't find the boxes right now) - I don't know if that would qualify for a warranty replacement.

I am considering a larger order for use in ceiling fan lights, etc, but would like to know of any others' experiences first.

 

[fatboyelroy]

They sound almost too good to be true. I like the life time warranty. That has been my major hold up from jumping all the way into LEDs for general lighting. Many of these manufacturers have short or no warranties. I want to have the bulb functioning long enough to recoup on the energy savings. I'll keep tabs on you to see how they perform.

 

[DavidD]

I, too, like the lifetime warranty & the real opportunity it provides to recoup the cost.

I did a little more research, and it appears that there has been at least 2 versions of this bulb. Version 1 had the same efficiency, but a higher Kelvin temperature. Version 1 also had the buzzing. Version 1 is no longer being made/shipped. Version 2 got rid of the buzzing & lowered the Kelvin temperature to 3000K (not sure what it was before). An online reviewer (led-light-review.com) still gave Version 2 a low rating for two reasons:

1. Quality of light: "Version 2 has an overly warm/yellow light color with a hint of the dreaded CFL green tinge"
2. Wattage used increased from Version 1 of 7.3W to Version 2 of 8.7W

My take? I am not overly picky on light color, so I may not be the best judge, but with a lot of people really liking 2700K color, how is 3000K "overly warm/yellow"? I think it looks fine. Also, maybe (just maybe) there is a version 3 (official or unofficial), because of my test sample of 3 bulbs, my Kill-A-Watt registered 6.9W/7.0W (flashing between the two) for 2 of them, and the third was 7.3W. No where near their test Version 2 of 8.7W

So anyway, I decided to go ahead and purchase 8 more bulbs (total of 11) to put in our most used fixtures.

I will let you guys know more after I get them & put them into service.

 

[LEDninja]

Does the bulb or box indicate it is UL listed?

Do the box have a lighting facts label? See
http://www.lightingfacts.com/default.aspx?cp=content/label

If they do not have either they are bullshitting you.
Lack of a UL label means the product have not been tested for electrical and fire safety..

-----

I read the whole page and saw conflicting information:
LED Light Bulb, 900 Lumen, Warm White, 9 Watt;
900 Lumens, 13-Watt Power Consumption, Non-Dimmable.
These guys do NOT know what they are doing.

-----

An incandescent bulb is omnidirectional. in a recessed downlight only half the light goes down in the room. The other half goes into the fixture and is lost. So a 75W bulb is 1000 lumens of which only 500 gets into the room.
Most LED bulbs are directional. So a 500 lumen bulb will send 500 lumens into the room. Since G7 power claims they are equivalent to a 75W in a downlight fixture the bulb you bought is probably no more than 500 lumens.

-----

The US DOE has a L prize competition with a 10 MILLION DOLLAR PRIZE. The current leader in the competition is Philips with a $50 bulb at 94 lumens per watt. If G7 Power is really >100 lumens per watt they would have entered their bulb in the competition, collected 10 MILLION DOLLARS and have the right to use US GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENT Of ENERGY L-Prize WINNER in their advertising.

-----

My gut feel is this bulb is similar to Home Depot's Ecosmart or Lowes Utilitech 40 watt equivalent. 7W 450 lumens. Those are often on sale at $10.

-----

I would suggest you buy a Philips 800 lumen and a 450 lumen at Home Depot and compare before buying more G7 power.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...ips-bulbs-800lm-amp-450lm-bulbs-at-Home-Depot

-----

BTW
Directional bulbs for downlights and desklamps.
Omnidirectional bulbs for table/floor lamps. Such as the Philips 'alien head'.

 

[broadgage]

I would agree that the claims are almost certainly exagerated.
As posted above, if they are really 100 lumens per watt, why have they not claimed the substantial prize that is on offer ?

 

[moozooh]

That competition had a lot of restrictions, including those on CCT, CRI, percentage of parts assembled in the US (which factors heavily into the price), and that's not all as far as I remember. This bulb is clearly ineligible for the competition.

 

[DavidD]

I will do my best to answer some of your questions raised.

It is not UL certified, but it is CE certified. According to the company rep, the bulb was originally designed for the European market, and therefore the CE mark was the applicable certification. CE certification is different from UL in that it is largely self-proclaimed, however it does have a certain level of third party oversight. G7 Power has several other bulbs, originally intended for the US market, and those have UL & Energy Star certifications. The implication I take from that, is that they have demonstrated the knowledge and ability to make a bulb safe to UL standards. I don't think the CE certification should be taken as being less than UL in this case - obviously, my opinion.

The box states:

Brightness: 900 Lumens
Energy Used: 9 Watts
Lumens per Watt: 100
Color Accuracy: >75
Input Voltage: 120 Volts
Distribution: 180 [little circle indicating degrees, which I don't know how to type here]
Light Color (CCT): 3000 [colored & labeled bar, with arrow pointing at 3,000]

I know the difference between omni-directional and directional.

As I stated in my opening post, I did compare it to, "450L - 800L LED bulbs, and CFLs," and, "they appear to be 65-75W replacements at only 7W used."

To speak more plainly for you, I have 450 lumen LED bulbs from Home Depot and Lowes. This is very noticeably brighter.

I have an 800 lumen LED bulb. It is a cool white bulb used as a task/reading light. The brightness is similar, however the difference in color temp makes it hard to judge precisely. I do not know if this G7 bulb is truly 900Lumens when only using 7-7.3 watts. It could only be 700-730 lumens. It is definitely brighter than Home Depot and Lowe's 450 lumen bulbs. It could be anywhere between 700 and 900 lumens as it compares similarly with my 800 lumen cool white / daylight bulb.

Directionally compared to CFL's: I actually don't have any 75W replacement CFLs. My judgements were made using 60W and 100W replacement CFLs. Total light was very similar to that of 60W replacement CFLs (my 60W CFLs are 825 lumens). Downward directional lighting was actually very similar to my 100W replacement CFLs. Which if you are taking 50% of my 1750 lumen 100W replacement CFLs, would mean 875 lumens directed down. That is pretty much what my family and I see.

I do not know anything about this prize. I suspect moozooh is correct.

 

[DavidD]

Another aspect which I noted right away, but failed to mention here, is the heat sink temperature.

After being on in identical fixtures (the 3 down-angled fixtures on a ceiling fan, fan was OFF), the heat sink surface temperature as measured by an IR thermometer (bulb was removed from fixture before measuring):

After 30 Minutes:
800L Cool White Big Box LED: 240-245 F
450L Warm White Big Box LED: 160-165 F
900L Warm White G7 Power LED: 115-120 F

After 60 Minutes:
800L Cool White Big Box LED: 245-250 F
450L Warm White Big Box LED: 180-185 F
900L Warm White G7 Power LED: 118-122 F

When comparing the G7 to the 450 lumen bulbs from Home Depot & Lowe's, the heat sink on the G7 is substantially cooler. So, not only is it brighter than the 450 lumen big box LED bulbs, but runs cooler. I take that to be indicative of its higher efficiency.

To be clear, I am only presenting information for discussion on an LED bulb that I found, which to me, has merit for certain applications.

 

[brickbat]

The G7 heatsink temperature is incredibly low. Any chance the emissivity if the G7 heatsink is lower than that of the others (that can degrade IR thermometer accuracy)?

 

[DavidD]

I am not entirely sure what you are asking. I don't know what the actual material is on any of them. The G7 is an A21 size bulb (Wider than A19) = more surface area for the heat sink, but then it doesn't have fins like my others. I don't know what could or could not degrade an IR thermometer's accuracy, but the whole reason I wanted to do this test, is because when testing them in multiple locations (taking them out, carrying them to other locations), my hand could tell that they were noticeably cooler than my other bulbs.

When I think LED heat, 2 things come to mind - efficiency and poor heat sinking. My Zebralight SC51 runs tons cooler at 100 lumens than my Nitecore D10 because it is more efficient. If these G7 bulbs have poor heat sinking, then they will die an early death. But with a lifetime warranty, any dead bulb gets replaced free. I'd bet on cooler temp because of efficiency.

Edit: Looking at g7power.com and their description of this bulb, it says, "aluminum base". I figured it was...

 

[brickbat]

Emissivity of the measured surface plays a role in the accuracy when using an IR thermometer.

"When measuring shiny surfaces, such as aluminum and stainless steel, the reflectivity of the surface will skew the reading of an IR thermometer unless you accommodate for it. Either coat surfaces such as griddles or cooking pans with a non-stick cooking spray before you take your reading, or place a small piece of masking tape on the metal surface and measure the taped area."

Above excerpted from here:

http://www.allqa.com/IR.htm

 

[DavidD]

Thanks for the explanation. I will redo the test tomorrow using masking tape. The G7 is somewhat shiny, so it might be slightly higher. But like I said, my hand can tell that there is a fairly large difference between the G7s and the others, so I doubt it will be significantly higher.

 

[LEDninja]

It is not UL certified, but it is CE certified. According to the company rep, the bulb was originally designed for the European market, and therefore the CE mark was the applicable certification. CE certification is different from UL in that it is largely self-proclaimed, however it does have a certain level of third party oversight. G7 Power has several other bulbs, originally intended for the US market, and those have UL & Energy Star certifications. The implication I take from that, is that they have demonstrated the knowledge and ability to make a bulb safe to UL standards. I don't think the CE certification should be taken as being less than UL in this case - obviously, my opinion.

The bulb in question only have CE. In Europe the voltage is 230V/50Hz. In North America the voltage is 115V/60Hz. The bulb has NOT been tested to North American safety standards. CE means the equipment is tested at 230V. Things that work at 230V may not work properly at 115V. CE is slightly better than no certification but is not equivalent to UL.

G7 Power probably do not design nor build their own bulbs. They may get some bulbs from Japan, others from China, still others from Taiwan.
The ones from Taiwan which have the same voltage as the US have no problem testing to US standards. The ones from China which have European voltage can not be tested at the factory to US standards. They simply have the wrong power.

In the US there is electrical utility requirements that the power factor is 0.9 or better. This is to not create problems with the grid. Unfortunately to meet this requirement LED light bulbs are less efficient. Excessive efficiency without American certification often mean the bulb do not meet this requirement.

Philips, Ecosmart, Utilitech Earthled get some of their bulbs from China too. But they send the 1st bulb to UL or an equivalent lab in North America to be tested and when passed bring more in for sale. G7 power obviously did not bother and rely on the salesman to bullshit customers who ask about UL listing.

Do not trust things a salesman say. It is not up to you to decide if CE is less than UL.
Ask the government (DOE) or ask your electrical utility's inspector. They will tell you UL, CSA, ETL are acceptable. CE is not.
The main problem you will have is if your house catches fire. If the insurance company finds you are using non listed equipment, they may not pay.

 

[moozooh]

So this bulb is safe to use in Europe, right? Cause it seems to be a decent choice.

 

[LEDninja]

So this bulb is safe to use in Europe, right? Cause it seems to be a decent choice.

You will need to check if you can get a 230V or 115-230V version. A strictly 115V version would not work over in Europe.

If you are in Europe do not order anything electrical mail order from North America. Buy from amazon.fr, amazon.de, amazon.it, amazon.es.
Do not buy from amazon.com or amazon.ca.
Do not buy lightbulbs from amazon.co.uk. They have a B-22 connector instead of E-26/E-27.

 

[DavidD]

The main problem you will have is if your house catches fire. If the insurance company finds you are using non listed equipment, they may not pay.

Okay, that sucks!

In the US there is electrical utility requirements that the power factor is 0.9 or better. This is to not create problems with the grid. Unfortunately to meet this requirement LED light bulbs are less efficient. Excessive efficiency without American certification often mean the bulb do not meet this requirement.

Can you explain this a little better? I don't understand how high efficiency could create problems with the grid.

 

[LEDninja]

Most LED light bulbs use a very big capacitor or 2 somewhere in the drive circuit. This makes the bulb a non-resistive load. Utilities like their loads to be as close to resistive as possible.
To offset the capacitance of the bulb the designer adds reactance. Unfortunately strictly capacitive/reactive circuits tend to oscillate. To dampen the oscillation the designer now adds a resistor. The resistor uses up energy doing nothing and turns it into heat. Bye bye efficiency.

A cheaply designed bulb for less regulated markets may be 7 watts but due to non resistive load may require 10VA. the grid works with VA (volt-amps) not watts.
So the first problem is your utility charges you for 7VA but supply you with 10VA. A better bulb would be 9W/10VA. Either way the utility has to supply you with 10VA. (Some of the newer meters measure VA, not W.)

The bigger problem is non resistive loads cause problems all the way through the system back to the generator due to phase change of the waveform. In addition to the utility's stuff a lot of equipment are designed to work with pure sine waves. This change of waveform can cause havoc especially to hospital, lab and semiconductor production equipment.

In industry it is required to have a power factor of 0.9 or better. Motors need a capacitor to neutralize its reactance. Some plants add a capacitor per motor. Other plants set up a bank of capacitors and switch individual capacitors in or out as necessary.

For a few LED light bulbs it is not a big deal. But if the whole country buys light bulbs with bad power factors, it can cause major problems.
(Power factor is one way of measuring how far you deviate from a resistive load. 1=pure resistor)

 

[brickbat]

So the first problem is your utility charges you for 7VA but supply you with 10VA. ...

The bigger problem is non resistive loads cause problems all the way through the system back to the generator due to phase change of the waveform. In addition to the utility's stuff a lot of equipment are designed to work with pure sine waves. This change of waveform can cause havoc especially to hospital, lab and semiconductor production equipment....

IMHO, this is a complete red herring. Yes, the LED lamp may have a low power factor. Many do, as do most CFLs. But it will be of no practical consequence whatsoever to the end user. Keep in mind, we're talking about 10 lamps in a residence. So maybe thats 0.10 kVAR? And you're bringing up "havoc with semiconductor production equipment". Really?

In this particular case, I'd be more concerned about the lack of UL and Energy Star listings. Basically, that means there has been no oversight on the manufacturer's claims. So, if you trust everything the manufacturer says, go for it. If they had a decent product, I can't see why they's skip listing by a NRTL, such as UL, or get Energy Star qualified.

http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?fuseaction=iledl.display_products_pdf

Also a lifetime guarantee from a no-name manufacturer is pretty much worthless.

 

[SemiMan]

IMHO, this is a complete red herring. Yes, the LED lamp may have a low power factor. Many do, as do most CFLs. But it will be of no practical consequence whatsoever to the end user. Keep in mind, we're talking about 10 lamps in a residence. So maybe thats 0.10 kVAR? And you're bringing up "havoc with semiconductor production equipment". Really?

In this particular case, I'd be more concerned about the lack of UL and Energy Star listings. Basically, that means there has been no oversight on the manufacturer's claims. So, if you trust everything the manufacturer says, go for it. If they had a decent product, I can't see why they's skip listing by a NRTL, such as UL, or get Energy Star qualified.

http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?fuseaction=iledl.display_products_pdf

Also a lifetime guarantee from a no-name manufacturer is pretty much worthless.

Ditto .... I am one of the biggest sticklers on having certifications, but a 10 watt low power factor load, even en-mass is not going to create much of an issue. Total additional losses across the whole grid will be fractions of a percent.

Ditto on the CE being meaningless ... UL/CSA/ETL apply to one specific product. CE, at least the way many Chinese suppliers use it ... one cert applies to everthing. Even that is really not the case as true CE certification may require additional product testing for EMI, etc. which they never did.

CE and ability to truly sell across Europe may even be in question, at least commercially. In Germany, they will want similar testing to UL etc. to provide each products safety.

You could almost trust self certification from a European or North American or Japanese company. Lack of conformance of a given product would likely be a mistake due to an oversight. With a Chinese company, the lack of conformance would likely be the rule, not the exception. They tend to try to get away with whatever they can. The concept of long term business relationships and brand equity is lost on most of them unless they have been forced into it (i.e. Solar Panels).

Semiman

 

[markr6]

I saw the newer version of these on amazon - G7 Power Truckee LED 10W (60W) 820 Lumen A19 3000K

Reviews look good. Anyone try this 3000K version? Looks like everything I want. Actually, I wish they had a 40W-equiv as well or something around 350lumen