Garage lighting

[Trouthead]

After 25 years in the same house and after 3 sets of garage lights, I would like to finally do it up right. My garage is 900 sg ft, with 11 ft ceilings and all walls and ceiling sheetrocked.

I stared with bare bulb el cheapo incandesent fixture (2), went to 2 bulb 4 ft flourescents (2), then went to cheap halogen fixture (2), which worked ok but not enough light, then replaced one of the cheap halogen fixtures with a hang down fixture that had two halogen bulbs, better but still lots of dark corners.

I'd like to try metal halide, as there are lots of cheap fixtures on EBAY, but I am a bit lost.

I would be using 2 fixtures, and my questions are: is a 400 watt bulb too much, is 175 enough, are metal halides instant on, are they ok for cold weather usuage, and are there any types I should stay away from??

I'd like to have really bright light that is evenly distributed. I see high bay and low bay fixtures on EBAY, obviously one is for high and one is for low ceiling, but can i assume that the low bays have more spread??

Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[brickbat]

I would be using 2 fixtures, and my questions are: is a 400 watt bulb too much, is 175 enough,

no one could answer that as written - you've not given us a clue what you want to do in the garage...

are metal halides instant on,

definitely not. They take about 3 minutes to warm up. And about 10 minutes to restart if they are power cycled...

are they ok for cold weather usuage,

yes - that's probably one of their biggest advantages.

I'd like to have really bright light that is evenly distributed. I see high bay and low bay fixtures on EBAY, obviously one is for high and one is for low ceiling, but can i assume that the low bays have more spread??

Yes, more spread with a low bay. IMHO it's still a lousy choice, given your desire for evenly distributed light and no dark corners. With just two fixtures you won't get even distribution in a 30' x 30' area with 11' ceilings. We sound like a broken record when this question comes up, but standard, 4' T8 fluorescents with name-brand electronic ballasts are pretty much the sweet spot for garage lighting. The only thing you might not like is their poor performance in cold temperatures. Gets cold in WY, right? If your garage is unheated, you might want to spend the extra $$ and go for T5 fluorescent lighting. I'm fairly sure it performs better in cold temps.

Metal halide lamps would be OK, too, but I'd want 6 or 8 fixtures, probably 70 Watts each. Or maybe investigate an indirect approach with a few large lamps shining up at your white ceiling...

 

[Trouthead]

What do I want to do in the garage?? Park, empty the trunk, fetch items for the wife, clean the litter box, change the oil in the cars, empty the garbage, etc. I do expect to have to have to use drop lights to work under the hood of the cars, but i would like to be able to read a repair manual etc when standing up. I could add perhaps one or two more fixtures of any type with a bit of difficulty, and I could use at least one wall mount fixture.

I don't have a hate for fluorescents, and I have seen on EBAY some 4 tube T-5s that look like they would also work. My last go round with fluorescents didn't work well as they were the big tube slow to start in the cold. I have since insulated the garage and it gets down to maybe 30 degrees when it is -25 degrees outside. My sink water does not freeze.

Are T-5 bulbs as good as I can go or do T-12s put out more light. Is it the ballast what starts the bulb instantly, or is it a function of the bulbs.

Are there CFL fixtures or bulbs tht might be better suited, or would a fixture that takes 6 ft bulbs be better than a 4 footer.

I did do a search on CPF and not much has been written. Any more help is appreciated.

 

[purduephotog]

I have a 1 car garage- I purchased an 8 foot, cold start FL (green tipped ends?) 8 years ago in June. It's still on the same tubes, and it gets ugly-arse cold here in Rochester, NY.

One of these fixtures gives plenty of light- I am tempted to add a second one just for grins.

A third FL (4 ft) light sits over my work bench and gives me spot light.

I'd recommend taking a look at the large 8 foot lights- they're monsters.

--edit: Removed reference to CFL and changed it to FL / Tube

 

[jtr1962]

Are T-5 bulbs as good as I can go or do T-12s put out more light. Is it the ballast what starts the bulb instantly, or is it a function of the bulbs.

T-5s and T-8s are both more efficient than T-12s, and put out at least as much light per tube, usually more, while using less power. It is the ballast which starts the bulb instantly. Electronic ballasts are usually instant on. A few are programmed rapid start which is a little easier on the lamps. If you had poor cold weather performance, then I assume you were using T-12s. They don't do well at all in cold temperatures. Even at 50°F they're noticeably dimmer. T-5s and T-8s both work much better at lower temperatures. T-8s are optimized for 25°C, T-5s for 35°C, so in the end I think T-8s might actually be a little better at very low temperatures..

Are there CFL fixtures or bulbs tht might be better suited, or would a fixture that takes 6 ft bulbs be better than a 4 footer.

CFL fixtures wouldn't be a good idea at all. The bulbs only last 8,000 to 10,000 hours compared to 24,000 and up for tubes. They cost more to replace. And they're not as reliable. Stick with 4-foot tubes. They're available everywhere. 6-foot tubes aren't.

 

[brickbat]

JTR's right - T8's are better in the cold:

http://www.thelightedge.com/technology/pdf/TempPerformance.pdf

I found this site from GE

http://www.gepc.pl/lighting/do_pobrania/Starcoat T5 - Karta Katalogowa (angielski).pdf

And was surprised at how poorly T5 lamps perform when cold. At 0C, their output drops to 22% of their reference output at 35C. Yikes - that's about 1/5 of the light output.

So, 4' T8's still top my list. Make sure they're good ballasts that operate the lamps at a full 32 Watts, as God intended - stay away from any 'energy saving' hype on the T8 lamps and fixtures. Lower drive power to a 4' lamp will be even worse at cold temps.

And, if you aren't too concerned about efficiency, want something cheap, and don't care about the reduced life, CFLs may be OK.

 

[Wattnot]

After reading all of these comments, the one I like best is the CFL plan. Just pepper the ceiling with plain old, cheap, plastic, standard sockets and put the 75w or 100w equivalent CFL lamps in them. Use a portable work light (or flashlight, DUH!) for changing the oil because no matter how much light you put on the ceiling, it still won't help under the car or even looking down the side of the engine for that socket you dropped! :D

 

[idleprocess]

There were originally 3 single-tube 4' T12 fixtures in my garage. They flickered terribly and took forever to warm up. I replaced two of them with inexpensive ($26) dual-tube T8 fixtures w/electronic ballasts and the difference is incredible: Instant-on, stupidly bright, and flicker-free.

I might not need a fixture for my workbench whenever I finally get that set up.

I really need to replace that third fixture someday...

 

[purduephotog]

After reading all of these comments, the one I like best is the CFL plan. Just pepper the ceiling with plain old, cheap, plastic, standard sockets and put the 75w or 100w equivalent CFL lamps in them. Use a portable work light (or flashlight, DUH!) for changing the oil because no matter how much light you put on the ceiling, it still won't help under the car or even looking down the side of the engine for that socket you dropped! :D

You'd seriously rather add tons of fixtures to the ceiling, wire them up and place ballasted CFL tubes in them that are not only very cold sensitive but have been known to catch fire- instead of putting in some 'industrial' grade long tube fixtures?

 

[Wattnot]

You'd seriously rather add tons of fixtures to the ceiling, wire them up and place ballasted CFL tubes in them that are not only very cold sensitive but have been known to catch fire- instead of putting in some 'industrial' grade long tube fixtures?

Dude . . . . I basically quoted YOU and said YOUR idea was a good one. Are you feeling okay?

I have a 1 car garage- I purchased an 8 foot, cold start CFL (green tipped ends?) 8 years ago in June. It's still on the same tubes, and it gets ugly-arse cold here in Rochester, NY.

One of these fixtures gives plenty of light- I am tempted to add a second one just for grins.

A third CFL (4 ft) light sits over my work bench and gives me spot light.

I wasn't really referring to any complex system . . . . my suggestion was even simpler than what you said initially. I was talking about simple screw in, store bought CFL's. The current generation are now cheaper and work fine in the cold.

 

[blasterman]

My first vote is for a couple 4 foot FL fixtures. 8 foot is better because four of them will easily cover an entire garage, but the tubes can be annoying to transport if you don't have a truck.

I know a few people that just string half a dozen extension sockets from the rafters and run reflector CFLs in them (as per above), and it works fine. Spreads the light out and throws it down very efficiently.

Just avoid Feit brand bulbs.

 

[brickbat]

...I purchased an 8 foot, cold start CFL...

...A third CFL (4 ft) light sits over my work bench and gives me spot light....

I don't think you know what a CFL is. It stands for Compact Fluorescent Lamp. You know - the little twisty helical spring lamps? Not 4 or 8 feet long..

 

[Trouthead]

Looking at the poor low temp performance of T-5s and T-8s. I wonder does the performace improve greatly as the bulb and the fixture heats up? i.e. does the bulb itself in the fixture get hot enough to overcome the low ambient temps, so that it performs like it is 30 degrees C rather than 0 degrees C? And if so would it make the cold weather difference between T-5s and T-8s a moot point?

 

[purduephotog]

ACK

Dude . . . . I basically quoted YOU and said YOUR idea was a good one. Are you feeling okay?

I wasn't really referring to any complex system . . . . my suggestion was even simpler than what you said initially. I was talking about simple screw in, store bought CFL's. The current generation are now cheaper and work fine in the cold.

Ack. I'm sorry.

CFL = FL. It's been a very long day. May I claim newborn-induced sleeplessness?

What I meant to say was a single 8 foot Fluorescent fixture (2x bulbs) provides sufficient light. I have replaced dozens of CFL bulbs in the same time that I have owned my house- many of which that have been on less hours than the single fixture out in the garage.

I would avoid CFL lights like the plague in any condition that is cold and not supported by seriously fire-proofed drywall (5/8ths). I had one catch fire in the basement above the pantry- scorched some wood in the ceiling (no drywall).

Again, my apologies- I was specifically referring to single tube lengths in excess of 4 foot and cold rated ballasts/starts.

 

[jtr1962]

Looking at the poor low temp performance of T-5s and T-8s. I wonder does the performace improve greatly as the bulb and the fixture heats up? i.e. does the bulb itself in the fixture get hot enough to overcome the low ambient temps, so that it performs like it is 30 degrees C rather than 0 degrees C? And if so would it make the cold weather difference between T-5s and T-8s a moot point?

T8s will perform somewhat better than T5s at low temperatures. See here on page 6. At 5° C a T8 will give about 60% maximum output compared to only about 25% for a T5. You can get them to perform even better by using an enclosed fixture and/or those plastic sleeves which are sold to contain the tube if it shatters. Both will raise the temperature around the tube so it's closer to the optimum.

Another comparison of different types of tubes

 

[ponygt65]

I have to agree with the two members highly suggesting to use the 4' T8 lamps.

If you want, you can get an 8' tandem fixture which is equivelant to a 2L 8', but utilizes (4) 4' lamps.

HID's would be a horrible way to go for this application.

CFLs aren't 'too' bad, but IMO, the linear luminaires will be more attractive looking while changing the litter box. :thumbsup:

 

[Ken_McE]

right. My garage is 900 sg ft, with 11 ft ceilings and all walls and ceiling sheetrocked.

One simple thing you can do is paint the ceiing and upper walls gloss white. It makes a difference.

I'd like to try metal halide, as there are lots of cheap fixtures on EBAY, but I am a bit lost.

They give a lot of light for a small amount of electricity. The light can be a touch greenish. The bulb, the socket, and the ballast all have to be matched up.

I would be using 2 fixtures, and my questions are: is a 400 watt bulb too much

A 400 watt HID would put out a huge amount of light. You could take them and bounce the light off the ceiling to avoid glare, should give splendid light.

is 175 enough,

With 175 I think I might go with the light aimed down, maybe with a diffuser, rather than ceiling bounce.

are metal halides instant on,

Mine takes a few minutes to come up to full brightness.

are they ok for cold weather usuage,

Don't think they care.

and are there any types I should stay away from??

Mercury HID seem to be on their way out. They have kind of a cold bluish light. Sodium HID are efficient but have a ghastly orange color.

Are T-5 bulbs as good as I can go or do T-12s put out more light.

T-12s are about an inch thick and are the oldest and most common.
T-8s are newer, slimmer, brighter, and more efficient than T-12s.
T-5s are newer and skinnier still, and put out frightening amounts of light. Not sure about the color quality though.

Are there CFL fixtures or bulbs tht might be better suited, or would a fixture that takes 6 ft bulbs be better than a 4 footer.

You would need monster 80 watt CFLs (actual power consumed, not that "equivalent to" nonsense) to light an area that big. You'd be better off with four-foot T-8s.

Any advice would be appreciated.

You could have incans or fluor. with their quick start for little trips in and out of the garage, have one or more HIDs that are on the same circuit but also have a pull string. When you plan to be in teh garage for a little while you pull the string to fire up the serious lighting.

 

[idleprocess]

4-6 dual 4' T8 fixtures would adequately light up a garage. I have 3 dual-tube fixtures in my garage and they light up the back half of my ~20x20 garage (where they're clustered) brilliantly and throw no small amount of light into the front half.

I don't know about their cold weather performance other than what I've read here. My garage is routinely ~20 degrees warmer than the outside air temperature in the winter when the garage door is closed.

I imagine that the lights would get closer to 100% output once they warmed up?

HIDs will probably be far more expensive and the bulbs more difficult to source, nevermind the hazards of HID capsules (possible UV exposure, arc tubes at incredible pressures even when cold).

 

[Trouthead]

pretty sure I am going to head in the T-5 direction. Some decent deals on EBAY not to mention I already know how to wire them, (just plug em in) :) and have changed ballasts out in old fixtures a few times.

I did however see some serious CFL on EBAY in the 35-80 watt range. Has anone had any experience with them. They appear to screw into a regular light socket.

I for one so far hate CFLs. Not enough light. I would be interested in first hand knowledge about these monster CFLs.

 

[ponygt65]

T-12s are about an inch thick and are the oldest and most common.
T-8s are newer, slimmer, brighter, and more efficient than T-12s.
T-5s are newer and skinnier still, and put out frightening amounts of light. Not sure about the color quality though.

Just for clarity

T12 = 1.5"
T8 = 1"
T5 = 5/8"

Letters depict the lamp 'shape' and the following numbers depict the diamater divisable by eight (8).

Just like a PAR38 lamp is 4.75" (38/8)

HIDs will probably be far more expensive and the bulbs more difficult to source, nevermind the hazards of HID capsules (possible UV exposure, arc tubes at incredible pressures even when cold).

HIDs are actually quite common. MH175-250-400s can be found is most home centers and hardware stores.

I did however see some serious CFL on EBAY in the 35-80 watt range. Has anone had any experience with them. They appear to screw into a regular light socket.

I for one so far hate CFLs. Not enough light. I would be interested in first hand knowledge about these monster CFLs.

Be careful what brand they are. make sure you research them well. Most high wattage CFL's are not BU rated. Not only that, the ballasts to produce a fair amount of heat. 'Most' (not all) CFLs that are above 45 Watts (usage) don't last long as the electronics get too hot. There is not enough heat disapation.

Also, I would suggest finding out what brand of Ballast is used in the ebay fixtures that you are interested in. There are alot of offshore items that are cheap for a reason.....IE: throw away units. Most ballast housings in those fixture will not house the common ballasts from ULT, Advance (now philips electronics), G-E, OSI, etc.