Generators

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Al

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Not sure if this is the proper forum, but ...
What powers lights? - electricity.
What produces electricity? - mostly batteries and GENERATORS which seem to be in such high demand (homeowners and gas-powered portables) that there is a plethora of units for sale (check E-bay) from all over the planet.
Obviously there must be a wide range of quality issues that should influence decision-making on which give the best value/dollar. Maybe it's time to start a thread to give users the opportunity to share their experiences and knowledge?
 
There are hundreds of factors one could consider in a generator. One that should cause you to reject one is brushes. Unless it states a brushless design move on. Brush noise plays havoc with TV, radios and lots of electronic power supplies.
 
Start out with how much capacity you need. Then select a fuel - gas, LP or Diesel. The size that I wanted made electric start mandatory.

I wound up buying a Miller Bobcat Welder/Generator. When I don't need its 9500w gen-set, I have a 225amp CC/CV portable (relative term: 600 lb.) 100% duty cycle welder to play with. The price difference between a welder/generator and a gen-set of the same capacity is amazingly small, and they are built hell for stout. Many spend their lives out in the weather on trailers bounced in and out of oilfields and survive fine.

Do have a licensed electrician put in your switchover setup to the breaker panel and have it inspected. It isn't worth invalidating your homeowners insurance coverage to do otherwise.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Do have a licensed electrician put in your switchover setup to the breaker panel and have it inspected. It isn't worth invalidating your homeowners insurance coverage to do otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this point can be emphasized too much. You should not install the switchover stuff yourself. Your insurance company will drop you if they find out. And the Electric company will just shut you off as they file a lawsuit against you. They are extremely intolerant of people doing this wrong and potentially killing their linemen working upstream. It's not just a matter of being able to switch off one while you have the other on, the 2 must be interlocked so that you cannot send power down the line no matter what switches stupid people in the future throw. These systems are expensive, but they are the only legal way to do it. This isn't just a matter of a code violation, if you kill a lineman with a bad setup you go to jail for negligent homicide.
 
We live where the power used to go out every time the wind blows...it has gotten better over the years. In fact, the fix from last year came apart last night so we ran out generator.

We have a portable 9.5kW brushless generator, powered by a 16hp V-Twin Briggs& Stratton Vanguard electric start engine, running off liquid propane. Ten years ago it cost (I think) about $2,600.00 plus the tranfer switch and getting it wired .....total about $3,000.00. Over the years it has proven to be money well spent.

Our house has a LP cook stove, LP water heater, LP furnace, wood burning stove, two well pumps (water), fridge, some lights. That's our particulars, the gas appliances use some electricity (except the cook stove) but the biggest draw are our water pumps. The generator is big enough to power the house and be "life as usual" when the regular power goes out.

The reason we chose LP is that we have 325 gallon propane tank that gets filled regularly that our appliances runn off of, so we plumbed the generator to that. The power can be out for a very long time, but as long as we have propane we have power. I can also run the generator off a small size BBQ propane tank if need be.

Yes, like PhotonRanger stated....get a licensed electrician to install a transfer switch. It's for your safety, but also for the safety of the power crews and your home owners insurance. The transformers step the power down going to your home......the power from your generator gets stepped up taveling in reverse back to the crews working on the lines. What they will do is hook up their monster generator and backfeed a bunch a power to you and blow your generator to shut it down. Generally causes a bunch of damage to your place.

mike
 
Glad I started this thread.

I am an electrician BTW.
In my area many installations are done using relatively small units 3-6 Kw. The thinking is to keep initial costs low and provide for essential circuits (fridge, some lighting, etc.) in the event of power outage. (not that frequent).

It's the small capacity units that interest me because of the large number of mfg'rs in the market. For instance, Honda is now marketing a "tailgate" gen that puts out 2Kw and weighs only about 50 lbs. A number of generators have idle control that tailors engine speed to the load while using voltage regulation.

Gas engine mfg'rs such as Briggs & Stratton claim to produce engines designed specifically for generator use, but it's difficult to determine who is really supplying high endurance engines at a reasonable cost. As I understand it, an average quality OHV engine that my be supplied with some of these small generators is only good for about 300 hours total runtime.
 
I have heard about the 300 hour mark and seem to recall it was associated with the cheaper base model generators. Like the 4.5kW-5.5kW ones for $400.00-$500.00 at Lowes. Now that's just what I seem to recall when I looked into it many years ago. Because I almost got one of those cheaper ones, but after researching them I decided to pay for more durability.

The higher end ones supposedly last much longer. Look for cast iron cylinder sleeves, OHV, automotive style oil filters, oil pumps (aka: oil pressurized), low oil shutoff, governor (it will automatically idle up/down depening on need) are things to look for in higher quality ones.

The cheaper ones are more like lawn mower engines, kind of a throw away thing not worth rebuilding if necessary. Little or no oil filtration, no oil pump. They tend to run wide open no matter what the power need is.

Mike
 
I've been wondering the opposite, why small generators are so expensive. You can get a 3 hp lawn mower for 150 dollars or so, and people use those things for a couple hours every Sunday, year in and year out. I guess if it needs service after 3 years, that's not so terrible. So why can't I get a 1 kw generator in that price range? For that matter, a rebuilt automobile engine (100+ hp) is $700 or so, and good for thousands of hours.
 
I think (just my opinion) that because a small generator has a motor, the generator itself, different mufflers (supposedly for residential use and quieter), additional electrical bells and whistles like plug receptables.

Whereas a lawn mower is basically some stamped sheet metal, steel blade, a cheap engine, plastic wheels, a tube with steel wool as the muffler. No generator or electical stuff.

Even though we run mowers quite often, they get several months off in many parts of the country because it's winter, snow, rain, grass not growing very fast sort of thing. Also the summer, I don't water so I stop having to really mow every 1-2 weeks. But a generator may be used all year around for various reasons. Which means it has the potential to run much more in a given year than a lawn mower.

Plus supply and demand. More lawn mowers are sold compared to small generators, thus reducing the price of manufacturing lawn mowers. They make their money on mowers by selling lots of them with less markup. Because the demand for small generators is not so great, they sell fewer of them with a higher markup.

Mike
 
For certain, a motor that has to run all the time needs better construction than one that ones once in a while. A gardener who mows lawns 8 hours a day probably doesn't want a 150 dollar mower. But for a lot of occasional generator users, 300 hours of runtime before needing service is fine. I'd rather buy a 250 dollar, 300 hour generator than a 600 dollar 3000 hour generator. I think stuff like mufflers and electrical plugs aren't very expensive (look at car mufflers). The generator itself might be more, since it has a lot of copper wire inside, but again, think of a car alternator, which is pretty much the same thing. The last part is the volume issue, and sure, there's something to that, they sell more lawn mowers than generators, but (to pick another comparable device) I don't know if they sell more chain saws than generators, and chain saws aren't that expensive either.
 
My Stihl chainsaw was over $400.00, while I had cheap Sears brand (made by Poulan I think) that cost less than half. My Sears brand basically destroyed itself after moderate useage in less than 2 years. My Stihl on the other hand is still going strong after 6 1/2 years of much harder use.. It's the old "apples to oranges" comparison. Like a Cadillac compared to Neon ....... they are basically the same thing, only different.

Guess it just depends on what brands your looking at, where they are made and what features you need. That kind of goes along with everything though.

Mike
 
Diesel vs gasoline vs propane?

For placing on a cabin in the mountain, often -30C.

Electrical remote startup with cellphone is partly a requirement for preheating the cabin before one arrives.

While gas generators probably are more common, gasoline looses its octanes (?) after a while. So propane or diesel/kerosene mix seems more practical. Not more than a kw is really needed, more is ok ofcourse. Since propane looses pressure in cold, I suspect that diesel/kerosene mix is the best solution. Am I right? What choices do I have?
 
Gas ...... not such a good idea. You could not let it sit for very long without runing into problems.

Diesel ....... will get slushy below -20. Not sure if they have additives for that.

Propane ....... won't fire below -20 either (I think). Have to adequately insulate supply line. Simple carburation system, basically it's a diaphram steup. Easy to work on.

Also, your oil for whatever you choose. You may need a block warmer.

I would go diesel or propane, gas is not even a consideration in my book.

The generator could not be heavily insulated as it's an engine and needs adequate ventilation. But what you could do is use propanediesel. If propane, have a tank that you can move yourself to get re-filled. Possibly a couple of 50-100 lb's (whatever your needs are, maybe smaller tanks). Run the line under ground, or if above ground....insulate the line running from the tanks to the generator. Same thing for diesel too.

You might consider a combination generator with battery power inverter setup.

Have the generator cycle once or twice a week for an hour or so to charge the batteries. If you have a furnace, set the furnace to go on while the generator is going. If it's a propane furnace, it won't need much power.... just enough to run the fans. It could actually run off the batteries by itself as long as you keep the batteries charged up with the cycling of the generator. So you could just run it off the batteries but cycle the generator to ensure the batteries are charged.

Then you could if need be, call your furnace instead of the generator. Since it's on batteries, you would not need to get the generator going at all.

Anyhow, you would want the generator to cycle regularly as many of the standby automatics do self checks. Also, it's not particularly good to let any engine sit for too long and you want to ensure that the battery that starts the generator keeps charged. Though those generally get charged by power to the house on a trickle charger. But it's a good idea to have the generator cycle.

Mike
 
One more push for propane: Engine cleanliness. The oil will stay a lot cleaner on propane. Diesel tends to create byproducts in the engine oil that are corrosive, as well. And it also tends to grow things and be really hard starting at low temps. Needs more starting current and glowplugs, so a much stiffer cranking battery..

Just some thots.. Been there..

Also try to avoid 'exciter' start setups, and stick to a unit with a traditional type starter. (Exciter start uses the generator as a direct-drive DC motor to crank. Very high currents and low torque. Also requires a brush-type exciter which is also a source of trouble.)

Another note: The newer small/cute Hondas and Yamahas actually run the generator part like a car alternator, at higher frequency and variable speed, which allows for a lighter and quieter unit, with less wear and tear on the engine. The trick is that it's generating DC just like a car setup, (but higher voltage) and using a switch-mode sine-wave inverter to convert it back to 60cycle AC.

Electronics like this much better, and the inverter's also frequency controlled, so motors and such run more precisely.

Only snag is.... They're pricey... Oh, well..

Yours, drs the crazed..
 
We put 50% kerosene (almost same as lamp oil) in the diesel here in the fishing boats in the winter. Helps for cold motoring for some reason.
 
I've been unable to find a portable propane generator. I have a Honda 1000 watt portable generator that weighs 30 pounds and works great, but it runs on gasoline. My understanding s that propane has a much longer shelf life than gasoline.

Are there any portable propane generators on the market ?
 
I'm a Briggs and Stratton master service technician. First, Briggs no longer makes any "flathead" type engines (other than cheap lawnmower engines) as they made millions of in the past because of strict EPA regulations. A standard Intek OHV is rated for 500 hours, steel bore intek is rated at 1000 hours. The Vanguards are rated for 2000 hours I believe. The "generator" engines are exactly the same as a regular engine, but have a different end on the crankshaft. (tapered) The standard cheap-o lawnmower engine is just that, cheap cheap cheap and disposable. The only thing that engine ever comes on is a lawnmower, and they are rarely rebuilt because it isn't worth it. The engines used on generators not only last longer but it is cost effective to rebuild them when the get old.

Edit: Propane engines generally don't last as long as the same thing in gasoline, they run hotter and the valves don't get as much lubrication. If you're running gasoline it's a good idea to mix a little 2 cycle oil with the gas, at around 150:1. That's what I do in all my engines, and they seem to last longer than most...
 
JohnnyGalaga,

Most gas generators (the engine manufacturers) have kits available to convert their engines from gas to lp. Basically a diaphragm replaces the carburetor. There are after market conversion kits for Honda and Briggs&Stratton. They probably have them direct too. This would be something to ask your local dealer about. They should be able to set you up.

Mike
 
AilSnail, try doing a google on 'WhisperGen.' It's a small, ~700w dc generator that will provide hot water for cabin heating, and is very quiet and low-maintainance. Then can run on everything from natural gas to diesel. (dependent on the model and burner assembly.) The price-tag might make you scream, however.
 
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