H9's in a 2012 4Runner?

[iroc409]

So we traded our cars in a while back for a 2012 4Runner (well, last summer thereabouts). I think it almost has better headlights than the last two vehicles, and they both were pretty good.

I did upgrade my truck previously with some of the higher end H4's, but the 4Runner uses separate hi/lo bulbs. I believe the lows are H11's, and the high beams are 9005. The low beams are reflector units, but they have a nice glare shield in front of the bulbs. Would it be safe to do the H9 modification for these headlights because of the glare shield, or would I still be giving other motorists problems? I think all the other times I've read about the H11/H9 conversion, it's been done with projectors.

 

[Alaric Darconville]

With the full shield and proper aim, it might not be a problem. These are NAL/Koito lamps, after all. (But I defer to Scheinwerfermann). The truck probably has its headlamps much higher off the ground than most cars, so it could be an annoyance to people you are behind in traffic as it bounces off their rear-view mirror.

HIR in the high beams is another upgrade you might consider. Careful using the high beams after that (and before that, because high beams are what they are).

 

[iroc409]

I had planned on HIRs in the high beams. I use the high beams quite a bit (even in dark neighborhoods), but am very cautious about using them around traffic. I dim them whenever I can see another car's tail lights and try to before I can see another car's headlights (by watching for their lights around corners and over hills).

The height could definitely be an issue, which is part of my concern.

 

[-Virgil-]

Don't put H9s in those low beams. They're mounted too high and there's too much uplight; you'll cause troublesome amounts of glare unless you lower the aim, and that would cut your seeing distance down much shorter than it should be. The Philips Xtreme Vision is the best H11 bulb and that's what you should use, with the lamps aimed properly.

Philips HIR1 (9011) in the high beams: Yes, that's what I would do.

 

[iroc409]

Excellent, thank you! I will pick some of those bulbs up instead.

 

[sadtimes]

You will fall in love with those HIR highs... Go ahead and build you a relay harness to get every bit of your moneys worth.

You would be shocked at what a 1 volt difference is in brightness... I was!

After my harness install I am getting 14.2-14.3v to my bulbs, man you can definitely see the difference.

If you don't want to build your own harness Daniel Stern sells em, and the bulbs too.

 

[iroc409]

I do need to check for voltage loss, but my last pretty new Toyota had almost zero voltage drop despite the teeny-looking wires. I built a test harness out of larger wires and full-sized relays, and actually had more voltage drop than the factory harness. To be fair, the test harness had alligator clips in some connections, which probably was a significant factor, but the factory harness was well within acceptable limits.

Oddly enough, the headlight with the longer wire run had less voltage drop. That doesn't mean this one won't have significant losses as it's a different vehicle.

 

[Alaric Darconville]

I do need to check for voltage loss, but my last pretty new Toyota had almost zero voltage drop despite the teeny-looking wires.

And you were doing this test in accordance with the instructions here? (Scroll down to the "HOW TO MEASURE" section)

 

[iroc409]

Yes, I believe so, but this test was done over a year ago. I know I used the instructions as a guide.

I have some PDF's on wire sizing. Some have to do with desired voltage drop per run/power usage specifically to do with vehicles and typical automotive circuits (use this size for 5% drop, use this other wire for 10% drop). The recommendations are considerably smaller than what's generally accepted as "required". Some people regularly recommend 12 GA wiring for headlights, which I personally think is excessive. I've had good luck using regular 14 GA, even with longer runs. The big problem is degradation over time. I am sure as the vehicle gets older, the factory wiring will be entirely insufficient, but as long as it's getting good results there's no need in fixing something that isn't broken.

However, that was for my previous vehicle--no telling what this one may have (though it's generally very similar so I would expect similar results with the electrics).

I haven't looked at Stern's site really lately, but isn't the goal less than 10% drop? 5%? I can't remember. Zero of course is best, or closest to it, but you'll never get that.

 

[Qship1996]

You will fall in love with those HIR highs... Go ahead and build you a relay harness to get every bit of your moneys worth.

You would be shocked at what a 1 volt difference is in brightness... I was!

After my harness install I am getting 14.2-14.3v to my bulbs, man you can definitely see the difference.


If you don't want to build your own harness Daniel Stern sells em, and the bulbs too.

Yes,much "brighter,but at the expense of a much reduced lifespan!

 

[N8N]

If you aren't doing a relay harness (and even if you are) I highly recommend spraying all connections down with Deoxit or similar to ensure no unnecessarily high resistance connections due to corrosion. I always have a can of the d5 spray when I'm working on automotive electrics.

 

[sadtimes]

Yes,much "brighter,but at the expense of a much reduced lifespan!

True, but I will make that swap any day.. one look at the difference in output and so will anyone else.. or at least I hope they would :)

 

[sadtimes]

And you were doing this test in accordance with the instructions here? (Scroll down to the "HOW TO MEASURE" section)

Make sure you use this method to check for voltage drop... Mine was slightly over 1 volt, but testing with other (wrong) methods showed almost no drop.

 

[sadtimes]

I do need to check for voltage loss, but my last pretty new Toyota had almost zero voltage drop despite the teeny-looking wires. I built a test harness out of larger wires and full-sized relays, and actually had more voltage drop than the factory harness. To be fair, the test harness had alligator clips in some connections, which probably was a significant factor, but the factory harness was well within acceptable limits.

Oddly enough, the headlight with the longer wire run had less voltage drop. That doesn't mean this one won't have significant losses as it's a different vehicle.

Something else is a foot here... Maybe your alligator connections are to blame, I find it very hard to believe that a factory harness out performs a properly constructed "home made" harness... In fact I would venture to say that it would never out do a properly built one.

 

[sadtimes]

Yes, I believe so, but this test was done over a year ago. I know I used the instructions as a guide.

I have some PDF's on wire sizing. Some have to do with desired voltage drop per run/power usage specifically to do with vehicles and typical automotive circuits (use this size for 5% drop, use this other wire for 10% drop). The recommendations are considerably smaller than what's generally accepted as "required". Some people regularly recommend 12 GA wiring for headlights, which I personally think is excessive. I've had good luck using regular 14 GA, even with longer runs. The big problem is degradation over time. I am sure as the vehicle gets older, the factory wiring will be entirely insufficient, but as long as it's getting good results there's no need in fixing something that isn't broken.

However, that was for my previous vehicle--no telling what this one may have (though it's generally very similar so I would expect similar results with the electrics).

I haven't looked at Stern's site really lately, but isn't the goal less than 10% drop? 5%? I can't remember. Zero of course is best, or closest to it, but you'll never get that.

Use 12ga, there is no reason not to.

 

[iroc409]

Use 12ga, there is no reason not to.

Significantly higher expense, particularly when using properly-rated insulator for underhood application (plain old PVC isn't rated for under-hood temps).

I should qualify. I generally only run one bulb per circuit/wire run. Either by dual 87 relay, or second relay. I've had excellent results with 14GA up to about a 100W bulb load on a longer run. If I were powering more than that, I would use a higher gauge.

I was pretty thorough with my testing. I even tested voltage drop on different types of relays (mini vs standard), and different loads (one bulb per relay vs two bulbs), etc. I'm confident my results were about as accurate you can get for average test equipment.

 

[-Virgil-]

For 12ga wire vs. 14ga wire I doubt the difference in cost is as great as all that. But I could be wrong; can you show us your math? Here's mine: With a cursory search, I find TXL 14ga wire for 18¢/ft and TXL 12ga wire for 24¢/ft here. If you use 50 feet of 12ga or 14ga wire in the whole project, which seems like a fairly large overestimate, at those prices you would spend $9 for 14ga or $12 for 12ga. I have a hard time regarding that $3 difference as a "significantly higher expense". Or suppose you want to go unnecessarily far toward the high end of wire specification and use silver-teflon wire; I find 14ga for 95.8¢/ft and 12ga for 80¢/ft (no, those aren't reversed). Where's the "significantly higher expense" of using 12ga here?

 

[sadtimes]

Significantly higher expense, particularly when using properly-rated insulator for underhood application (plain old PVC isn't rated for under-hood temps).

I should qualify. I generally only run one bulb per circuit/wire run. Either by dual 87 relay, or second relay. I've had excellent results with 14GA up to about a 100W bulb load on a longer run. If I were powering more than that, I would use a higher gauge.

I was pretty thorough with my testing. I even tested voltage drop on different types of relays (mini vs standard), and different loads (one bulb per relay vs two bulbs), etc. I'm confident my results were about as accurate you can get for average test equipment.

I would be interested in your test results from the different relays, I used Hella 40a relays in my build and used one relay for low and one for high, I used 12ga wire throughout except for trigger wires, I have almost zero loss in my harness (battery is in the trunk and I pulled a 6ga positive and ground under the hood un Power all my extras...)

What were you findings with different relays? I have plenty extras, I could send you one if you didn't already have one to test..

 

[iroc409]

For 12ga wire vs. 14ga wire I doubt the difference in cost is as great as all that. But I could be wrong; can you show us your math? Here's mine: With a cursory search, I find TXL 14ga wire for 18¢/ft and TXL 12ga wire for 24¢/ft here. If you use 50 feet of 12ga or 14ga wire in the whole project, which seems like a fairly large overestimate, at those prices you would spend $9 for 14ga or $12 for 12ga. I have a hard time regarding that $3 difference as a "significantly higher expense". Or suppose you want to go unnecessarily far toward the high end of wire specification and use silver-teflon wire; I find 14ga for 95.8¢/ft and 12ga for 80¢/ft (no, those aren't reversed). Where's the "significantly higher expense" of using 12ga here?

I'll have to look where I got the wire--but not there. Part of the problem is where I did order, you had to buy in quantities of either 100 or 250ft minimum, which is obviously far more than necessary--but with a significant price difference, that extra quantity adds up. I think it was nearing twice the price of 14GA, but the purchase was over a year ago.

I also had problems with connectors. Some of the stuff I've used for light plugs and fuse systems (weatherpak type) won't take 12GA at all, and max out at 14. That's another issue that added to it, which is admittedly more of a problem with component choice than the actual wire.

As an example, what I've seen of the weatherproof Hella 90MM modules, the connections would not comfortably (and may not at all) take 12GA wire. 14 might even be a stretch in some cases.

I would be interested in your test results from the different relays, I used Hella 40a relays in my build and used one relay for low and one for high, I used 12ga wire throughout except for trigger wires, I have almost zero loss in my harness (battery is in the trunk and I pulled a 6ga positive and ground under the hood un Power all my extras...)

What were you findings with different relays? I have plenty extras, I could send you one if you didn't already have one to test..

I was testing mostly full-sized Tyco relays against some micro ISO relays. I have an Excel spreadsheet that details all of my findings, but I don't have it here. I'll have to see if I can find it. I tested one and two bulbs per relay. As expected, the voltage drop was higher with two bulbs per relay, but significantly moreso on the micro relays. So much so that you could get away with a single average car headlight bulb on a micro relay, but adding a second was (IMHO) too much voltage loss.

The factory wiring had surprisingly small amounts of voltage drop--but the circuit was fairly well-designed, and the wiring was very new. The circuit didn't look much different than what we'd build in our own relay harnesses. I'd guess the wire was 20GA, but it had short runs to ground (using the chassis). Surprisingly, the least drop was the furthest from the batter/relay.

 

[-Virgil-]

I was testing mostly full-sized Tyco relays against some micro ISO relays. I have an Excel spreadsheet that details all of my findings, but I don't have it here. I'll have to see if I can find it.

I hope so. I'll be interested to see your findings. I've long thought that the micro relays are really too small for the kinds of tasks we're talking about here. Of course as you say you can have just one bulb (instead of a pair) per relay, but then the count of parts (and connections) goes way up which increases the number of potential failure sites in the system. The Tyco/Bosch relays (you call "full sized", official terminology has them as "mini") have always worked well and reliably for me. I haven't tried the solid-state relays such as Hella offers, because they cost a lot of money, but it would be interesting to know how those measure up, too.