if led's are brighter and more efficient why does anyone do incan?
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Juggernaut
Flashlight Enthusiast
10,000 reasons, Incans are just as superior to LEDs, no question about it. I can't make 4000 lumens from LEDs for $30.
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SureAddicted
Enlightened
I cant believe these threads keep popping up, if you like LED that is fine, leave incan alone. I'll always carry an incan for a reason you'll never understand.
Sgt. LED
Flashaholic
Room and reason for both types.
There always will be.
There always will be.
kramer5150
Flashaholic
I still like using the OEM P60 modules in both my lights, although I can't say that I favor them over my LED modules. 60 Lumens is just about right for general use. I can't explain why but I just like the color tint, I think it just looks "right". I have never tried a warm tint Cree though.
brighterisbetter
Flashlight Enthusiast
+1
To the OP, the search feature is very useful
This also goes for your previous thread here. It saves a lot of people the aggravation of having to answer relatively the same question several times over.Also, wouldn't this be more suited in either the LED or Incandescent forum?
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Welcome to CPF. Remember flood beats throw in 90% of circumstances unless you're trying to impress your friends!
I used to have a FAQ to respond to questions from newbies it really helped my blood pressure.
Simple answer is...your basic assumption is wrong.
There are no LED at this time that can completely replace incandescent lamps if you need HIGH output. Remember however color rendering. Mankind has evolved over eons with only two light sources...the Sun and Fire.
Maybe in a few years heat dissipation and color index will improve to the point where your question is a no brainer.
I used to have a FAQ to respond to questions from newbies it really helped my blood pressure.
Simple answer is...your basic assumption is wrong.
There are no LED at this time that can completely replace incandescent lamps if you need HIGH output. Remember however color rendering. Mankind has evolved over eons with only two light sources...the Sun and Fire.
Maybe in a few years heat dissipation and color index will improve to the point where your question is a no brainer.
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etc
Flashlight Enthusiast
Just compare the number of posts in the incan forum vs. those in the LED forum.
Is that a rhetorical question?
Better color rendition is a moot point, as Malkoff proved you can make LEDs just as yellow as an incan. (Not to my taste though)
Is that a rhetorical question?
Better color rendition is a moot point, as Malkoff proved you can make LEDs just as yellow as an incan. (Not to my taste though)
LightKnife
Newly Enlightened
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2008
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- 74
Incans still gives the instant gratification of 5k lumens 
brighterisbetter
Flashlight Enthusiast
Maybe at lower lumen ratings, but that's not the only thing that's going on here. Incans are not dead yet. They're vastly more cost effective, at least in the short term. See following quote:
Now I do realize that in the long term under normal use, many incans will fail prior to one led failing.
Honestly, I'm getting really sick of these threads, incan vs. led It sort of reminds me of a new member's first post, and without using the search function at all or reading any threads, they post something like: "Hey everyone, I'm new. What's the best flashlight out there? Beamshots plz!!!!" It just gets old after a while.
How about 'buy what you like' and that's it. What do you personally have to gain by trying to conform another person to your tastes???? That's an effort in futility if there ever was such a thing.
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shomie911
Enlightened
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2008
- Messages
- 850
Not quite.
I'm the one with the M60W. It's warm but nowhere near as yellow as an incan in person.
It is, however, a lot warmer than a normal LED tint.
Incan is still king in my book. The color rendition is perfect, throws a lot better for a given size.
LED is getting close, and the extended runtime is more important than light quality in some circumstances.
The M60W is the best LED I've had so far though. :twothumbs
BlueBeam22
*Super Flashaholic*
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2008
- Messages
- 1,518
Just my humble opinions:
I much prefer LED flashlights over Incandescent flashlights, but love Incandescent spotlights for their high output and throw.
My favorite light source is HID for its extreme output and throw, but IMO Incandescent is also very good because it is so cheap yet performs so greatly in large spotlights.
CREE XR-E LED flashlights are amazing for their extreme output and throw at such small sizes, and IMO nothing beats LED in small flashlights. I LOVE my CREE XR-E flashlights.
I appreciate all 3 light sources for various reasons and feel each one has its good points, pros, and cons.
I much prefer LED flashlights over Incandescent flashlights, but love Incandescent spotlights for their high output and throw.
My favorite light source is HID for its extreme output and throw, but IMO Incandescent is also very good because it is so cheap yet performs so greatly in large spotlights.
CREE XR-E LED flashlights are amazing for their extreme output and throw at such small sizes, and IMO nothing beats LED in small flashlights. I LOVE my CREE XR-E flashlights.
I appreciate all 3 light sources for various reasons and feel each one has its good points, pros, and cons.
brighterisbetter
Flashlight Enthusiast
??
show me ONE led that's brighter than an Osram 64623 incan lamp
LukeA
Flashlight Enthusiast
leon2245
Flashlight Enthusiast
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2008
- Messages
- 2,335
Speaking of, what will be the advantages once L.E.D.'s are able to match incan tints (the other 9,998 advantages that is L.O.L. @ J.N.)? And S.A. why is yours a reason the O.P. would never understand? Is it something so abstract it can't be put into words, or is it because it's a personal matter? I think we should give W.U. the benefit of the doubt here and assume he is capable of understanding the reasons if you can explain. His only crime really is not searching, but despite how many times this conversation exists in the archives, I.M.O. it's always O.K. to run it again, as the context of this discussion changes with advancements of L.E.D. technologY!
I actually prefer incans' color and how with less lumens they seem to throw better outdoors. In fact I currently E.D.C. an incan (A2), but once L.E.D.'s can match those aspects, they will be hard for me to deny. As it is now, I can live with less runtime and lower efficiency, but my main reason for not having more is their lack of regulation, or else I'd buy more quality incans.
J.M.O. and Y.M.M.V.
mdocod
Flashaholic
There's a lot of misconception about LEDs. The automatic assumption that they are vastly more efficient than incans, while valid in many comparisons, can be proven false in other comparisons. A well designed incan can achieve 30-60 lumens per watt, which is not far behind the best LEDs out there when they are driven hard. There are plenty of Cree modules out there being pushed into the realm of ~5W input power, at those drive levels, they around 50-70 lumens per watt. The gap is not as large as many think. Where LEDs are best is in compact flashlights where they are driven to more conservative levels, taking advantage of the 100+ lm/w they are capable of.
As for LEDs being brighter, yes and no... Depends on how much you are willing to spend. The only way to get the LED brighter is to slap more of them in the head of the flashlight, this can get complicated, and getting a quality build that involves a shower-head style setup of R2s can cost hundreds, even up to a thousand dollars or more.
With the recent advancement of LiMn cells from AW in the 16340 size, there are 2xCR123 and 3xCR123 size options becoming available that very few similar size LED lights can compete with at all. Granted the runtime stinks, but some operations do not require runtime, just maximum output in a compact package, incans have taken the upper hand here recently. Think Room clearing.
I have no delusions that LEDs will continue to eclipse out incans in the areas they excel in over the next few years. It's coming and there is no stopping it. I welcome the new generations of LEDs with excitement. Incans will always be relevant for as long as someone desires to use them.
Eric
As for LEDs being brighter, yes and no... Depends on how much you are willing to spend. The only way to get the LED brighter is to slap more of them in the head of the flashlight, this can get complicated, and getting a quality build that involves a shower-head style setup of R2s can cost hundreds, even up to a thousand dollars or more.
With the recent advancement of LiMn cells from AW in the 16340 size, there are 2xCR123 and 3xCR123 size options becoming available that very few similar size LED lights can compete with at all. Granted the runtime stinks, but some operations do not require runtime, just maximum output in a compact package, incans have taken the upper hand here recently. Think Room clearing.
I have no delusions that LEDs will continue to eclipse out incans in the areas they excel in over the next few years. It's coming and there is no stopping it. I welcome the new generations of LEDs with excitement. Incans will always be relevant for as long as someone desires to use them.
Eric
Truthfully, if you ever owned a HID; you wouldn't ask such a question.
I love LED lights. But they don't do everything well.
js
Flashlight Enthusiast
The spectral characteristic of incan light makes it pretty well suited to use in fog and rain, and in areas where there is lots of residual light pollution. Lumen for lumen, it cuts through such an atmosphere better than LED light. Also, it is easier to make an incan light throw, all other things being equal.
I still have a SureFire M6 with MN15 (X-LOLA) lamp installed that I use when out in the woods and fields. I also take an LED light along with me, usually my LunaSol 20, of course, but the M6/MN15 is my main walk-in-the-fields-at-night light. Or if I want a smaller one, then the SureFire A2.
There's still nothing quite like a medium to high power incandescent thrower for certain situations. Although, I'm sure that will change given some more time, and it already is changing, what with the Nichia 083 high CRI LED--freaking amazing LED light from that emitter! But right now, in mist and fog and rain, give me a medium power incan over an LED light.
As for HID, I don't have any experience with it, so I can't speak intelligently about it.
I still have a SureFire M6 with MN15 (X-LOLA) lamp installed that I use when out in the woods and fields. I also take an LED light along with me, usually my LunaSol 20, of course, but the M6/MN15 is my main walk-in-the-fields-at-night light. Or if I want a smaller one, then the SureFire A2.
There's still nothing quite like a medium to high power incandescent thrower for certain situations. Although, I'm sure that will change given some more time, and it already is changing, what with the Nichia 083 high CRI LED--freaking amazing LED light from that emitter! But right now, in mist and fog and rain, give me a medium power incan over an LED light.
As for HID, I don't have any experience with it, so I can't speak intelligently about it.
LukeA
Flashlight Enthusiast
see it that way:
1st: dont make these threads, the incan guys dont like them
2nd: it depends on the SIZE of the light.
... as long as You think of 2*CR123, 2*AA, 1*18650 and similar lights, "normal" incan bulbs give 50 mins of light, while the Led ones (especially the 18650s) give some 2+ hours of considerably brighter light.
but with way larger lights - which as a "plus" offer only about 20 mins of runtime - incans in the 20+ Watt class are much brighter, but need way more power for this.
(what a surprise as if it were a surprise a Porsche can go faster that a Volkswagen Golf)
the question is: what is of importance for You?
light, small, multilevel light --> Led
brightness, brightness, brightness, but runtime and weight/size does not matter? --> look for an incan.
PS: to compete with the powerlights, one would need led lights eating an equivalent of the current the incan model runs on. That means more than just one led.
Try bike lights: usually the brighter homemade ones feature an Osram 12V/20 W bulb. This one runs on ~ 2 Amps.
To come to a comparable led model, that means 7-8 individual led (and such a light blows the incan away!)
but
cost! effort in building! Thermal management!
use the actual technique for what its best:
led = small handheld lights,
incan = large throwers
1st: dont make these threads, the incan guys dont like them
2nd: it depends on the SIZE of the light.
... as long as You think of 2*CR123, 2*AA, 1*18650 and similar lights, "normal" incan bulbs give 50 mins of light, while the Led ones (especially the 18650s) give some 2+ hours of considerably brighter light.
but with way larger lights - which as a "plus" offer only about 20 mins of runtime - incans in the 20+ Watt class are much brighter, but need way more power for this.
(what a surprise
as if it were a surprise a Porsche can go faster that a Volkswagen Golf)the question is: what is of importance for You?
light, small, multilevel light --> Led
brightness, brightness, brightness, but runtime and weight/size does not matter? --> look for an incan.
PS: to compete with the powerlights, one would need led lights eating an equivalent of the current the incan model runs on. That means more than just one led.
Try bike lights: usually the brighter homemade ones feature an Osram 12V/20 W bulb. This one runs on ~ 2 Amps.
To come to a comparable led model, that means 7-8 individual led (and such a light blows the incan away!)
but
cost! effort in building! Thermal management!
use the actual technique for what its best:
led = small handheld lights,
incan = large throwers
