LED traffic lights pose hazard in snow storms

I've seen more incandescent traffic lights obscured by snow than LED ones.

This has been discussed before.
 
Yes, high-efficiency coupled with low dissipation has a
downside. Perhaps they could build in a defrost grid into
the lense that would come on only as need. The power
savings of LED v. incandescent traffic lights over even
a modest-sized city would still be compelling.

Reminds me of a furnace outage over several hours while
outside temperature was hovering around freezing. Just to be
safe I ran around the house temporarily replacing all my CFLs
with 100W incandescents which are kept handy.

Dave
 
It's an issue brought up in the automotive forum quite a bit. Basically it's just a bad design problem because all you need to do is just move the heat from the LED heatsink to the front of the protective lens, which can easily be accomplied with a nichrome coated grid, etc.
 
The last snow storm we had here in Madison featured the stickiest snow I've ever seen. It built up everywhere ( the phone line coming into my house was four inches in diameter the next day). The snow itself is by far the bigger driving hazard. Who cares what color the signal is when you're sliding through the intersection?
 
I never notice any build up on the LEDs and I maintain traffic lights, could be my location we don't get a lot of snow/ice
 
The last snow storm we had here in Madison featured the stickiest snow I've ever seen. It built up everywhere ( the phone line coming into my house was four inches in diameter the next day). The snow itself is by far the bigger driving hazard. Who cares what color the signal is when you're sliding through the intersection?

haha bingo, i live in alaska which has a lot of snow fall and your statement is exactly correct!
 
I think we're all missing the bigger picture here, which is that because of this study, a bunch of grad students have a little less to pay on their student loans now. That's the real gain.
 
It's pretty much a universal rule that if a traffic light is broken you treat the intersection as if it had a four-way stop sign. I don't even have a driver's license and I know this. Traffic lights WILL break, whether LED or incandescent. That's why this rule exists. It's an age old rule dating back to long before autos even existed-"A dark signal must be interpreted as displaying its most restrictive aspect (generally "Stop" or "Stop and Proceed")". That's railroad parlance. The modern translation applying to road traffic is what appears in the first sentence of this paragraph. Predictably, when some drivers fail to obey rules, collisions happen. Sadly, this one cost someone their life.

It's odd that in the intervening two years that manufacturers haven't addressed or solved the problems.
I'm sure they are devising ways to reduce the issue discussed in this thread. And I'm quite sure the next generation of traffic signals will cope better with blown snow. I believe coatings exist which prevent ice or snow from sticking to surfaces. And shields can keep snow from hitting the lens in the first place. Nevertheless, we can be sure that still doesn't mean LED traffic signals will never malfunction or be obscured. Like every else man-made, there will be times when they don't work. That's why there is a driving rule to deal with that. Do the benefits of using them outweigh the negatives? I think the answer to that is yes or so many municipalities wouldn't have switched over. One benefit LED signals have is that a failure is usually a partial failure. Some emitters remain lit, allowing the signal aspect to remain visible until road crews can replace it.
 
If they went back to incan traffic lights in those snow locations, it would solve the problem, and is the easier answer.
 
Hi Folks !

The better Way: stay at home, drink a cup of Tea/Coffee, don't drive and wait until the Snowstorm is over. Or use the right Tires and drive very slowly.

Greetings
 
I live in West Michigan which along with Eastern New York has some of the worst snow conditions in the lower 48.

I think the number of times I've seen a traffic signal occluded or partially by snow in my lifetime is three or less. By far the bigger problem is lenses that haven't been cleaned since the Korean War and have a 1/4" of grease and smog caked on them.

Again, the problem is easy to solve. However, the companies making these things are more busy worrying about their IPO prices and marketing rather than proper field testing. As usual, it's easier blaming the technology.
 
I live in West Michigan which along with Eastern New York has some of the worst snow conditions in the lower 48.

I think the number of times I've seen a traffic signal occluded or partially by snow in my lifetime is three or less. By far the bigger problem is lenses that haven't been cleaned since the Korean War and have a 1/4" of grease and smog caked on them.

Again, the problem is easy to solve. However, the companies making these things are more busy worrying about their IPO prices and marketing rather than proper field testing. As usual, it's easier blaming the technology.
+1 to everything you wrote. Not a difficult problem to solve at all. Just putting shields around the lights, as we have had in NYC for decades, solves 95% of the problem by preventing snow from hitting the lens in the first place. I don't get why that isn't universally required nationwide. Shields also help protect the lens in case vandals throw rocks at it by making it a lot more difficult to get a direct hit. I don't believe I've ever seen a traffic light obscured by snow here, and it's not from lack of looking. I've had an obsession of sorts from time to time with traffic signals ever since I was a kid. I pretty much notice any changes, as well as anything unusual. That includes blown snow.

Oh, and quaint idea about going back to incandescent, LL but it isn't happening any more then a revival of the steam locomotive ( yes, on some railfan sites I frequent there are actually railfans suggesting that we bring back steam locomotives even though the economics of doing so are prohibitive, they're utterly incapable of meeting today's schedules due to their poor tractive characteristics, not to mention they would have a bit of trouble meeting Tier III emissions standards). Do you have any idea how much in labor and electricity municipalities are saving with LED traffic signals? In NYC alone the figure is an annual energy savings of more than 81% ( more than $6.3 million ). That's in addition to labor savings from less frequent replacement. Also, by switching to LED, we now have a system in place at some intersections where the traffic signals can run off battery power in the event of an outage. This wasn't even possible with the old type signals at any reasonable cost. This makes things safer than having no signals at all in the event of a power outage. Another thing worth mentioning is that the new signals here are far more visible than the old ones. I can see what aspect a signal is from half a mile out, assuming I have a clear line of sight. With the older signals the limit was 1/4 mile or so.

As with any new technology, you weigh the benefits versus the drawbacks. The benefits here are many. In this case, the only minor drawback, which is more or less solveable, is a somewhat greater potential to be obscured by blown snow, and then only in a handful of states with frequent, heavy snowfall. But as I said a few posts back, if drivers do what they're supposed to do, and treat a blocked signal as a stop sign, then that's a nonissue. The accident you linked to happened because the driver hitting the other car making the left didn't bother to stop even though he had no signal. Moreover, he went through a dark signal proceeding at a high enough rate of speed to result in a fatal collision. Had he at least slowed down enough to check for traffic, there might have been no accident, or at worst a fender bender. So he was wrong on two counts. As is the case in nearly 100% of collisions, human error was the primary cause here. But we now have such low standards when it comes to driver training and licensing that I've given up any hope of expecting drivers to do what they're supposed to do. IMO, articles like this do a major disservice to the general public. Other drivers will read these articles. If they happen to have a collision in snowy conditions, they'll blame the traffic signals even if they intentionally ran a light. Very convenient. When the police get there and find an unobscured signal, they can always say the wind knocked down the snow. So this is just what we need, yet another thing to blame collisions on instead of the poor/distracted driving which is really the culprit.

BTW, my mom was involved in a similar type of accident 9 years ago and the signals were working fine. She was making a left on the green arrow, and then gets sideswiped by someone running a red light at probably 60 mph ( in a 30 mph zone ). Distracted driving caused by a cell phone. There were even cracks in the other drivers wideshield where the cell phone hit. My point here is signal technology is irrelevant if drivers aren't properly trained. That includes proper attitude. Too many drivers think of their car as an extension of their office or their living room. The fact that you actually have to make laws banning texting while driving, when common sense already says you shouldn't look down at a 2 inch screen, trying to hit tiny keys, while piloting a motor vehicle, is about all that needs to be said on the state of driving training/attitude these days.

Sorry all about the novel here. This is a subject I feel very strongly about even though I don't drive a car. Too many times as a pedestrian or cyclist I've had things nearly happen because of clueless drivers running lights, not looking while turning, or otherwise being oblivious to the world around them. Just in the last decade I've seen how much worse things have gotten.
 
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And in a perfect world people would actually treat intersections with no visable lights like a 4-way stop.

Just as a thought experiment, what if only ONE or TWO of the driving directions has their lights snowed over? :poke:

I think that is much trickier to deal with because the working directions won't know that the other directions are snowed over.

When there is an electrical issue, I think that all 4 directions turn off by design (at least, that's what I've seen). But snow occlusion won't be such an all-or-nothing proposition.

Just thinking out loud.
 
Just as a thought experiment, what if only ONE or TWO of the driving directions has their lights snowed over? :poke:

I think that is much trickier to deal with because the working directions won't know that the other directions are snowed over.

When there is an electrical issue, I think that all 4 directions turn off by design (at least, that's what I've seen). But snow occlusion won't be such an all-or-nothing proposition.

Just thinking out loud.
Easy, the drivers having the blocked signals treat them as a stop sign and wait until it's safe to proceed. If the blocked signal happens to be red, then they'll just be doing exactly the same thing they would be doing if the signal were unblocked. And chances are good that they wouldn't be able to cross the intersection until the cross traffic got a red signal anyway ( unless traffic on the cross street was very light ). If on the other hand the blocked signal was green, they would still stop and check before proceeding, wasting a little time perhaps, and proceeding once they see cross traffic is stopped ( as it would be because cross traffic would have a red signal ). Hypothetically, the only real danger here is if they stop and proceed, and their blocked signal changes from green to amber to red as they start going through the intersection. A driver on the cross street with a quick foot might then collide with them. However, it would a a relatively low speed collision because it would be impossible to accelerate to high rate of speed given the distances involved ( some tens of feet ).

I should also point out that in all likelihood only one of the signals at at time would be blocked. If the green signal was blocked but the amber and red weren't, then when the light changed to amber the driver would suddenly see that they could no longer proceed across the intersection.

So it doesn't matter if all four directions are blocked or not. If drivers treat a blocked signal as a stop sign, at worst there could only be a fender bender. Another thing which bears mentioning here is that you should always be prepared to stop at any intersection, green light or not. Suppose an emergency vehicle comes through? Or suppose a driver on the cross street runs the light? Even as a cyclist, I always look at the cross street when proceeding through green lights, and cover my brake if I see any cross traffic. This way if they don't stop, I gain a few tenths in reaction time. And it has helped on more than one occasion. Drivers here are notorious for running lights.
 
The best thing one can do is put the cell phone down and stop texting while driving.
 
The discussion of how much money these LED stoplights save is noted, but if it is determined by a jury to be a public safety negligence/failure, a fatality or single serious injury could easily wipe out however many millions of dollars were saved.

The point is that there are many sides of utilizing new technologies...some good, some bad, and some unknown. Corrections can and will be made, but it is important that people not inculcate everyone with absolute, new, and foisted changes, in this case regarding LED's.
 

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