Lithium batteries and water

[illumiGeek]

I noticed that some of the companies that specialize in underwater or "Dive" lights have classified their Lithium powered lights as "Sport" lights, and have even gone so far as to warn "not for diving use" for these lights.

When I wrote one of these companies to ask why, I got this response:

Lithium batteries and water are a potentially explosive combination. Since most people don't take proper care of the o-ring seals in their flashlight (as opposed to diving computers or cameras), the leakage risk is greater.

I found this quite startling since I have never noticed any water related safety warnings on Lithium batteries. Since I frequently use Lithiums in some of my lights I did some research on the Energizer technical information site. They have no specific warnings about water in their safety data, and in fact recommend water as an extiguishing agent for fires involving Lithium batteries. Their disposal data mentions federal regulations regarding the possibility of violent reactions with water, and they state that "An intact scrap battery will not react in that manner".

So it looks to me like the dive light companies either know something the battery companies don't, or are suffering from a bit of paranoia.

I was wondering of anyone here has any more information on the suject of Lithium batteries and water dangers? Battereis I would be using would be the 123 cells, the Energizer Lithium AA E91 cells, and the 3.6V Lithium AA type batteries.

Thanks for any more info or insight.

Aloha, iG

 

[TheFire]

Supposedly, when you dunk the lithium cell in water, you can cause hydrogen buildup which could potentially be explosive.

 

[phoneguy]

i would imagine this might have something to do with pressure

 

[Lewie]

[ QUOTE ]
Supposedly, when you dunk the lithium cell in water, you can cause hydrogen buildup which could potentially be explosive.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this just electrolysis? I wonder if this is due to the higher voltage on Lithiums or maybe the materials used to house the battery? In a mostly sealed flashlight, hydrogen and oxygen buildup on each side of the battery could eventually push out the water and then when you hit the switch, a spark and BLOOOMPH (underwater bang). /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif Dunno.

--
Lewie

 

[Steelwolf]

There are a number of different types of lithium cells out there. And a quick search I did turned up a couple of MSDS relating to each type.

The first item refers to Lithium Thionyl Chloride. These are the 3.6V types use mainly in memory backup. It seems the electrolyte is something extremely nasty and a lot of the warning seems to refer more to the electrolyte than the lithium. This one suggests using water only as a cooling medium. Class D, Lith-X extinguishers are the go.

This second one refers to Manganese Dioxide/Lithium metal. This combination appears to deliver 3V and is stacked in the 9V Ultralife "transistor" batteries. To extinguish, copious amounts of water must be used, though the preference is for Class D, Lith-X extinguishers.

What are these extinguishers they keep referring to?

It would seem then that the suggestion by Energizer to use water as an extinguishing medium is mainly because the amount of lithium in a consumer cell is quite small and sufficient water will douse the flames and cool down any hot lithium, even if the lithium will then react to produce hydrogen gas. I'm guessing too that the amount of hydrogen released would be easily dissipated. Explosive reactions should be quite small in scale and is probably expected to be confined by the cell casing.

This link is for Li-Ion cells by SAFT. This turns around from the previous 2 MSDS by saying that Class D extinguishers should not be used. Instead, CO2, dry chemical and foam extinguishers should be used. The electrolyte looks pretty nasty and seems similar to the one used in UltraLife cells. It seems that the main worry is not lithium metal, as there are only trace amounts with the majority of lithium in Lithium Cobaltite form. So explosions and release of hydrogen gas is not likely. But the reaction of the electrolyte with water releases hydrogen flouride, a very corrosive gas IIRC.

There are a few other Lithium based cells, but that's enough for now I think.

 

[Steelwolf]

Lewie: Definitely not electrolysis. You're gonna need quite a bit more voltage for that. It's the lithium metal reacting to produce hydrogen. Similar to potassium and sodium.

 

[JSWrightOC]

(3)H2O + (2)Li = (2)LiOH + (2)H2 + Energy

Lithium Hydroxide is a nasty alkaline substance. For comparison, Alkaline primary cells use Potassium Hydroxide (KOH) which is another order less reactive.

 

[illumiGeek]

Read through some more safety material, and it looks like the Lithium Manganese Dioxide (123 cells) and the Lithium Iron Disulfide (E91 AA cells) are okay with water.

OTOH, Lithium Thionyl Chloride (3.6V AA) can get nasty if water enters the cell (but this shouldn't happen with intact cells).

 

[Canuke]

well, the day I decided to take a swim with my cell phone, I didn't get a BLOOMPH, but the power pack definitely didn't like it, and unlike the phone, never recovered.

 

[Klaus]

Funny - my L91 AA Lithium goes like:

WARNING: Battery can explode or cause burns if installed backwards, disassembled, recharged, or exposed to water , fire or high temperature

Klaus

 

[The_LED_Museum]

[ QUOTE ]
Steelwolf said:
What are these extinguishers they keep referring to?

[/ QUOTE ]
A class D fire extinguisher is expressly for extinguishing fires in or involving flammable metals, like magnesium, zirconium, aluminim, sodium, calcium, or lithium.
You're not very likely to find these extinguishers in your local home center or hardware store; they're somewhat specialised and would be more commonly found in laboratories and factories that handle these metals.

 

[billw]

In a leaky dive light, you have problems beyond the usual reaction of water and lithium (which shouldn't occur with an intact battery.) You're talking about salt water, which is nasty-corrosive over a long term. If you haven't taken care of your o-rings, and get some salt water in the battery compartment, it seems to be that it is possible that (during longterm storage) you can corrode through the outside of the batteries, make hydrogen with the lithium, resulting in a hydrogen-filled battery compartment, which would not be a good thing. So, yeah, the dive light companies are probably being paranoid, but probably with SOME reason...

BTW, I would think Lithium hydroxide would be less nasty than potassium hydroxide (hydrogen hydroxide, at the top of that list of active 'metals', is pretty safe :-) But I can't immediately find any data to back that up (MSDS's of those hydroxides being all about the same), and they're all "nasty enough."

BillW

 

[evanlocc]

Yes, when the Lithium battery in it 'orginal suit' it is pretty safe.

BUT if you break it or cut into pieces then a total different story.

 

[illumiGeek]

[ QUOTE ]
evanlocc said:
Yes, when the Lithium battery in it 'orginal suit' it is pretty safe.

BUT if you break it or cut into pieces then a total different story.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course, that's true for pretty much any battery.

 

[HarryN]

Hi - This is my first posting.

At 3 V, you are getting in the range of electrolysis of H2O. A short circuited CR123x2 can easily drive 1-2 amps in salt water. I would need to do the math on how many liters of H2 and O2 would be generated, but it is not insignificant for a closed space and pulsed DC.

 

[IlluminatingBikr]

Dumb or not, the following happened, with NO explosions. My dad and I placed one SF123A and one Engergizer CR123A into their own, individual glass of water. We left them in over night. There were no explosions, and the batteries were both in one piece after the full day. The Energizer had more of some "gunk" that was let out of both of the batteries, although the SF cell let out some of this "gunk" substance too.

<font color="red">I DO NOT ADVISE ANYBODY TO PUT BATTERIES IN WATER.</font>