Lithium Battery Question

[StuU]

I have a question dealing with the life of standard lithium batteries like CR123. The shelf life of these batteries is not in doubt- I have used 9 year old 123s and gotten great service out of them.

My question is- what happens to the battery life after the flashlight has been used the first time? My understanding is that the lithium batteries will be OK for a year of so but will not have that 10 year original life. Is this correct?

So, suppose a lithium powered DD flashlight was capable of 10 hours of light and I used the light for an hour to change a tire. Suppose the light was not used again until ten years after that tire change. So, after 10 years, would I still have 9 hours of lighting capacity? Or would the lithium batteries have degraded more quickly after that first usage?

This would be an important issue for lithium powered lights that are kept for emergencies or standby.

Thanks, Stu

 

[Glenn]

VERY good question!!

Has anyone had enough experience with these cells to
answer it ?

Glenn

 

[batterystation]

There has been quite a debate about this. Rumors say that once you "activate" the chemical reaction that you lose the ten years. This has not been my experience. When the light is turned off, the chemical reaction stops and since you have not altered the chemistry of the battery, it still retains those great high internal resistance features common to a lithium. I am sure there are people that will say otherwise, but we have tested this (not ten years) and found a year later, the remaining capacity was untouched.
We did a half discharge and then shelfed it. We got the other half right on the money a year later.

 

[2dim]

Mine have been used very briefly over several years at least and still give the same light output as fresh ones, with either a P60 or P61 bulb. I'm wondering how they'll die. Is it true these lamps can be damaged or actually blow, by using batteries right to the end?

 

[batterystation]

I believe Al would know that answer better than I, but I think that burning lamp filiments on dead or dying batteries so they glow orange is not good for them. Common sense would argue against this, but I believe it is true.
Anyone else with more experience on lamps?

 

[2dim]

So how do I know when to change batteries? BTW, got your package from Rochester, Kevin. Thanks to you and d'mo. Now I can play with that P61, long as I don't blow it...!

 

[Size15's]

I have no long term experience with 123As because I use 'em too fast! Having said that, if you just flash a light to see if the batteries are still good you may not get the full story.
Many batteries may be able to provide instant brightness for very short duration. How they perform after 30-60 seconds constant-on use may be more telling.

I suspect that 123As are more robust and like Kevin has written, they will perform after longer periods of inactivity far better than other normal chemistries. One thing to bear in mind is that contacts even in sealed "waterproof" lights may degrade so to get the best out of your flashlight that has been in long term storage you may need to clean it (and the battery terminals) before use of you could have reduced output and runtime due to the increased resistance.

I do not like the output from incandescents when the batteries are low or almost dead. I don't understand the need to get every last drop out of batteries. I like high performance and this means accepting a certain amount of wastage. I don't run my incands to dead. From what I read this does maintain the Halogen cycle and reduces the amount of vapourised Tungsten that does not make it back to the filament. Also, if you put fresh batteries in and clean up the bulb the Tungsten is unlikely return to exactly where it came from so the thinner parts of the filament keep on getting thinner and this increases the risk of it breaking.

A ten year shelf life shouldn't mean you don't rotate before then. Give yourself some overage and rotate after five years!

Al

 

[StuU]

There were past references on CPF to an internal "film" in lithium batteries that would be dissolved when the batteries were activated.....??

As far as smaller lights go, I have had lithium AAs in some CMG Infinities for 3+ years. They are in use and still going apparently full strength on these original lithiums. However, the Infinities use up a miniscule amount of energy. It might be different with higher power lights that are designed for strong emergency lighting?

 

[cobb]

I am impressed with them so far with my 10 months of use with a set. I like to keep flashlights loaded, but the batteries seem to expire or explode and leak all over the place.

Far as I know, ten years, then they degrade. This is if used or not. Radio shack or some company use to sell batteries that you had to activate to get them to work. They had a ten year shelf life then once you twisted them or what ever they lasted a few months.

 

[Bisley]

1 hour to change a tire?What kind of vehicle do you drive,a big rig ?? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hahaha.gif

 

[cobb]

FYI, I saw a tire service truck come into our shop to change some tires. Basically the truck had tires and hand tools plus an impact gun with air tank. The tire was removed from the rim with hand tools. It took about an hour for him to change two tires.

 

[StuU]

OK OK. Tire changing for an hour was just an example. Maybe a power outage would be a better example? Actually, a vehicle emergency light might very well be used for an hour on a task like changing a fan belt or signalling approaching vehicles in the case of a breakdown.

I spent a couple very dark hours disassembling a rear brake drum near Newcastle Wyoming when a brake shoe retainer self-destructed in the wee hours...unfortunately the only lights available were Maglites and I didn't even have one of those. Brake repair in the sagebrush country is a real challenge when all you have is moonlight. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

The main problem now is not lacking of lighting- it's which of 80 flashlights gets left at home.

 

[AtomSphere]

question... what if i mix fresh 123 batteries with half used or 3/4 used ones? any problems like explodtion? I searched the forum for 30min and found nothing related...

 

[SilverFox]

Hello AtomSphere,

I believe the only problem with mixing partially discharged batteries with fully charged ones is that you will get less run time. I do not believe the minor amount of charging that will take place will do anything violent.

Tom

 

[lithium]

The "internal 'film' in lithium batteries that would be dissolved when the batteries were activated" is just an oxide layer. The cell will begin to 'grow' a new oxide layer as soon as any load is removed and it stabilizes.

Within a few days to a few months (depending on the type, size, temp and other factors) the cell will again be protected from self discharge like when it was new. This will happen even if the cell is almost dead, but it will take progressively longer and become less effective during the last third or so of the life of the cell.

When I have a battery such as a 123 that is in the last third of its life, I store it in a landfill for distant future archaeologists amusement /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif. As most people who are concerned with battery life and storage will also discard a battery at or before this point, self discharge from the loss of the film is not an issue.

There are other factors that cause self discharge and every type of battery made suffers from one or more of them. All batteries will also have their storage life shortened from partial discharge, but in the case lithium primary types such as 123's and coin cells (2032, etc.), it is of almost no practical concern. (alkaline batteries are a different story...)



As for mixing new and used 123 (or any other) batteries, I would not suggest it. As Tom said, an explosion is unlikely, but it is very wasteful. Not only do you never get full power from the set, you waste some of what you have as heat loss and cell damage from charging. The 123's protection circuit 'should' stop the cell from bursting into flames, but hydrogen gas will be released and can rupture an airtight case even without burning.



Btw, those batteries that you twist to activate are regular zinc-carbon cells that have one of a few types of devices that keep the acid from contacting the anode or cathode. The twisting opens or breaks something to let the acid make contact. There are high-end batteries of this type that have an indefinite storage life. The ten year life of the common ones comes mostly from the lack of a perfect hermetic seal - they become truly dry cells.


Ken

 

[dukeleto]

[ QUOTE ]
lithium said:
When I have a battery such as a 123 that is in the last third of its life, I store it in a landfill for distant future archaeologists amusement /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif.


[/ QUOTE ]
Is that a joke? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif
I thought they weren't meant to be overly good for the environment?

Olivier

 

[RussH]

I had stored a mini-mag light prior to y2k with 2 L91 lithium AAs in it. They were slightly used in testing the light & bulbs before storage. After sitting for 4-5 years (some time in 1999 to some time in 2004, IIRC) they gave normal performance. The hard part was getting the tailcap off, it had siezed up!

I have had similar experience with my SF 6P, which sat for about 3 years. I only know that the batteries were somewhat used when I put it away & worked fine when I recently got it out again. It's still running on those batteries and the original LA. I think I bought this thing in the early 90's and the LA has been thru at least 10 sets of batteries......

There's nothing to hurt using new and partially discharged batteries together, especially if they are in series. Since lithiums have such a flat voltage profile you won't be able to tell when you're doing it anyway.

 

[AtomSphere]

2nd Question... if litium batteries come in contact with water, will it explode? someone posted said it would...
anyone experience or heard anything like that?

3rd Question... will lithum batteries produce hydrogen as time passes?