Looking for a long range light.

[mattevt]

1) How would you prefer to purchase the light?

____I would like to purchase the light from a brick and mortar store. I am located in ______________.
__x_I will be mail-ordering or buying online, so this doesn't matter.


2) Budget: An easy question, but you may change your mind after answering the rest! :-)

____Less than $25.
____Less than $50.
__x_Less than $100. This is somewhat flexible.
____Less than $150.
____Less than $300.
____I have no limit.
____I’m flexible, tell me what you gotJ.
____Other, please specify ________


3) Format:

__x_I want a flashlight.
____I want a headlamp.
____I want a lantern.
____I want a dive light.
____I want a portable spotlight.


4) Flashlight-specific format/size:

____Keychain size.
____Every day carry small (2-4 inches).
____Every day carry medium (4-7 inches).
____Holster carry.
____Big enough to need its own travel caseJ.
____I don’t care.
____I don’t know.
____N/A


5) Emitter/Light source:

__x_LED (known for efficiency, longevity, and compactness)
____Incandescent (known for superior color rendition)
____HID (known for max output, but often at the expense of size)
____I don't know.


6) Manufacturer:

__x_I want to buy a light from a traditional mass producing manufacturer that is ready to go out of the box.
__x_I would consider getting a light that is pieced together (for example a “host” or flashlight body from one manufacturer, and a “drop-in” emitter from another source). Under the right circumstances, this path can provide more options to the consumer to meet specific needs, and can often be easily upgradeable as technology improves.


7) What battery type do you want to use?

____I intend to use alkaline batteries (AAA, AA, C, D) (disclaimer, while it does not preclude all choices, these are not recommended for many of today’s most powerful lights)
__x_I intend to use rechargeable nickel chemistry (NiCad, NiMH, NiZn)
__x_I intend to use lithium primary batteries (CR123, CR2, Energizer Advanced/Ultimate Lithium AA/AAA)
__x_I intend to use rechargeable lithium (li-ion) chemistry. Feel free to specify a size if you know which size you want (14500, RCR123/16340, 17500, 17670, 18650, etc.)
____I want a light with an integrated rechargeable battery. (Note: these choices may be very limited unless you are looking at spotlights)


8) How much genuine out the front (OTF) light do you want/need? Sometimes you can have too much light (trying to read up close up with a 100 lumen light is impossible).

____I want to navigate a dark room or read a map (0-10 lumens).
____I want to walk around an unlit rural area (50-150 lumens).
____I want to illuminate my entire backyard or a campsite (150-300 lumens).
__x_I want to illuminate an entire field, the neighbor's front yard several houses down, impress my friends and neighbors, etc. (300-700 lumens).
____I want ridiculous amounts of lumens (800+ lumens).


9) Throw vs. Flood: At what distance will you be most likely to use this light? Select all that apply.

____Less than 1 yard/meter (reading, other close work)
____Less than 5 yards/meters (looking for something inside a dark shed/garage/basement)
____5-20 yards/meters (check out a noise in the backyard)
____30-50 yards/meters (I have a big backyard)
____50-150 yards/meters (I live in a very rural area/farm with wide open spaces)
__x_150+ yards (I want maximum throw possible)


10) Runtime: Not over-inflated manufacturer runtime claims, but usable brightness measured from first activation to 50% with new batteries (Measured on maximum output).

____Up to 30 minutes (I want the brightest [and potentially smallest] light for brief periods)
__x_30-60 minutes (I have plenty of batteries just ready to be changed)
__x_90-120 minutes (Runtime is moderately important, but still not critical)
____3 hours + (I critically need this light to run on max for extended periods in between battery changes/charges).


11) Durability/Usage: Generally the old phrase “you get what you pay for” is very accurate for flashlights.

____Not Important (A “night-stand” light).
____Slightly Important (Walks around the neighborhood).
__x_Very Important (Camping, Backpacking, Car Glove-box).
____Critical (Police, Fire, Search & Rescue, Caving, Survival).
____I don't care.
____I don’t know.


12) Switch Type and location (choose all that apply):

__x_I want a forward clicky (Helpful for momentary activation and signaling).
____I want a reverse clicky (For use with multi-mode/level lights).
____I want a momentary switch (Predominantly for use with signaling and short bursts of momentary light only).
____I want a twisty switch (Tighten the head/tailcap to activate, and the light will stay on until the head/tailcap is loosened).
____I want a body mounted switch (near the head, like on a Maglite).
____I want a tail mounted switch (found on the majority of today’s high end lights).
____I don't care.
____I don’t know.
____Other, please specify____________________.


13) User Interface (UI) and mode selection. Select all that apply.

__x_A simple on-off with only one output level is fine for me.
__x_I want 2 light levels. (Brighter/short runtime and Dimmer/long runtime.)
__x_I want multiple light levels. (Some lights have 5-16 light levels.)
____I want a programmable light.
____I want a selector ring.
____I want a strobe mode. (Blinks to show location.)
____I want SOS mode.
____I want a beacon mode.
____I don’t care.
____I don’t know.


14)Material/Finish/Coating

____Plastic/composite body (this may limit your choices significantly).
____Anodized Aluminum – either type II or III (Hard Anodized) (Aluminum, specifically HA, is the most common material/finish for today’s flashlights).
____Stainless steel (durable, but much heavier than aluminum)
____Titanium (durable and nearly as lightweight as aluminum, but can be moderately to significantly more expensive).
__x_I don’t care.
____I don’t know.
____Other, please specify____________.


15) Special Needs/extras: Is there anything else you want or need that hasn't been mentioned? Select any below.

____Red filter (for preserving night vision).
____Other filter colors (Amber, Green, Blue, _________).
____Dedicated R/G/B secondary LEDs.
____“Hybrid” light (bright incandescent combined with long running LEDs)
____Pocket/belt clip
____Holster
____Wrist/Neck Lanyard
____Crenulated bezel
____Non-sparking Intrinsically Safe (IS) for use in explosive environments


Basically, I'm looking for the best usable throw for ~100. Run times aren't critical but 60-90 minutes on high would be nice.

 

[Poppy]

Unfortunately this questionair should have an essay part to it asking the person to enter a short description of what the light would be used for.

It seems to me that most modern lights are regulated to give 60-90 minutes on high, so that won't be a problem.
"usable" throw is very relative and is determined to a great extent upon the candlepower of the light, which is determined to a great extent by the size of the reflector, the size of the emitter, and how hard it is driven (the harder it is driven, the less run time for the same capacity battery).

For example a TK35 will give better throw with the same emitter driven at the same level as a P60 dropin. because of its larger reflector, BUT the same XML in a P60 host pushed harder by a custom builder can out-throw it, for a short while.

So to narrow the field down a bit, what size do you want the head to be, and describe what you see as a typical scenario for your use for this light.

 

[mattevt]

Unfortunately this questionair should have an essay part to it asking the person to enter a short description of what the light would be used for.

It seems to me that most modern lights are regulated to give 60-90 minutes on high, so that won't be a problem.
"usable" throw is very relative and is determined to a great extent upon the candlepower of the light, which is determined to a great extent by the size of the reflector, the size of the emitter, and how hard it is driven (the harder it is driven, the less run time for the same capacity battery).

For example a TK35 will give better throw with the same emitter driven at the same level as a P60 dropin. because of its larger reflector, BUT the same XML in a P60 host pushed harder by a custom builder can out-throw it, for a short while.

So to narrow the field down a bit, what size do you want the head to be, and describe what you see as a typical scenario for your use for this light.

Thank you for your response. I guess it would be helpful to include "intended use". By usable, I mean I would like to be able to identify objects/animals. I don't need to set them on fire, but if I could tell what something was at a distance, I would be satisfied. It's not for edc, but so size isn't a huge concern. I wouldn't want anything bigger than a 2d mag though.

I've never quite understood the mechanics of output vs. throw. I have a few p60 drop-ins, and, though they have similar, or even greater lumen ratings, they can't out throw my Maelstrom MMS.

 

[Starik1]

I've never quite understood the mechanics of output vs. throw. I have a few p60 drop-ins, and, though they have similar, or even greater lumen ratings, they can't out throw my Maelstrom MMS.

Two flashlights with the same output can have different throw because of the reflectors. Some flashlights focus all their light into a narrow beam (more throw), and others allow the light to scatter across a wider area (flood).

 

[mattevt]

Two flashlights with the same output can have different throw because of the reflectors. Some flashlights focus all their light into a narrow beam (more throw), and others allow the light to scatter across a wider area (flood).

This, I understand. However, Poppy commented that "the same XML in a P60 host, pushed harder by a custom builder can outthrow a fenix TK35." The TK35 has a much larger reflector. I'm wondering how this is possible; especially since, in my experience, an XML emitter has a wider beam profile, and therefore will not throw as far as a smaller emitter using the same reflector.

 

[Cereal_Killer]

When your talking specifically about throw lumen ratings are useless, in fact most of the custom thrower builders don't even list the lumens of their lights. The ONLY number than matters for a 100% thrower beam profile light is Cd (candela)

what he means by custom builder is someone who is making a 100% custom light, not just a light put together with off the shelf parts. Beam profile is controlled by reflector design, so if you engineer a good enough reflector it wouldn't be a problem to make an XM-L out throw a XP-G or even an XR-E. look at the quart QB2L-X, it out throws several of the XP-G quarks because of its reflector being specifically designed for the XM-L to throw.

Yes it's easier to make a emitter with smaller die throw farther, that doesn't mean it's impossible to make an emitter with larger die throw just as far, it just takes more R&D.

 

[mattevt]

Oh...I read P60 host as P60 head. I'm willing to piece together the light to get more throw, but I can't go much over $100.

 

[Poppy]

mattevt, you interpreted my statement correctly and Cereal_Killer gave me more credit than I deserve. While I understand that cd measurement is most important for throw determination, I, perhaps mistakenly, think, that if you keep all other things equal (emitter, and reflector) that if you increase the amount of lumins (by pushing the emitter harder) that the cd will also increase. Now, considering that the TK35 reflector is SO much LARGER than a standard P60 reflector, I probably overstated what is possible.

Personally I prefer a big fat XML hot spot, to a narrow XP-G

I have four larger than P60 head lights, a TK35 with XML-T6 (the newer TK35 with XM-L2 would be better)
Thrunite TN11S XML emitter
a LED 3-D maglight (with a smaller emitter, I guess a XP-G)
and I just picked up from Home Depot a large head Defiant 3C "Super Thrower". It has an XML emitter.

Undoubtedly, the Defiant out-throws the others. I used a 3 inch 1/4-20 bolt with a cap nut, inserted into a drilled out 1 inch dowel as a spacer, and a single 18650 battery. It works great, and is inexpensive. I know that it is larger than what you like, but for a single purpose light, you might like it. Mine is driven at 2 amps, other members here say their's is driven a little higher (and therefore probably is even better than mine).

 

[TEEJ]

Just offering a clarification:

You can't SEE lumens. Lumens essentially represent what the light is sending downrange. ALL you CAN see are the photons/light that bounces off a target, back to your eyes. The brightness of the TARGET is what you DO see, and, that is measured in cd or lux.

(cd = lux at 1 meter)


So, the brighter the target looks, the higher the cd of the light.


What confuses people is that how the light gets there changes its applications....even with the same lumens and the same lux, etc.


For example, the depth of the reflector bowl, the diameter of the reflector bowl, and the relative position of the LED in that bowl, the size of the LED relative to the size of the bowl, and so forth....all change what the beam looks like.


As Poppy was alluding to, generally, all things being equal, if two lights have the same cd, but one has more total lumens, generally, that means the hot spot can be larger.

The reason is that ALL the cd tells you is the brightness of the spot of light on the target. It does NOT tell you how large that spot is. A laser beam can have a high cd, but be about worthless to look for a lost dog with, etc....as the teeny dot of light, while certainly bright, is not illuminating much AREA at a time.


If there are three lights, all with a cd of 100,000, that means you'll SEE ~ 1 lux at ~ 316 meters on a target....with all three lights.

If light one has a beam angle of 30º, its spot of light will be ~ 170meters across, a very massive flood of light....requiring a massive lumen out put to cover it.

If light two has a beam angle of 10º, its spot of light will be ~ 57 meters across, ~ 1/3 the size.

If light three has a beam angle of 1.4º (Like an aspheric lensed light, etc..), its beam angle would be ~ 8 meters across...a much smaller spot of light.



Each scenario requires progressively lower lumen out put to illuminate the resulting areas covered by the light.


Now, in real life, the beam includes a hot spot, a corona and some spill. So, while the HOTTEST PART OF THE HOTSPOT is what the cd is measuring, the rest of the hot spot is not represented. That means that some of the hot spot is NOT going to give that same 1 lux at 316 meters...some will fall off before that.


The same applies to the corona...some of the corona may make it halfway out, some less than that, etc.


Spill is unfocused light, so, the lumens sent off on their way hit randomly out there, typically, in a pool near the light itself. NONE of the spill is typically reaching a distant target.



So, even with the same beam angles, cd and lumens, what you SEE can still be different....because the PROPORTIONS of what's sent off into the darkness can differ.


This is why its pretty hard to realistically compare lights unless your specs of interest are quite simple. If ALL you care about is hitting as distant a target as possible, ALL you care about is the cd.

If all you care about is your mule's flood, lumens will be a good # to look at....and so forth.


Where it gets tricky, is when your light's intended function may be varied and require some overlaps in coverage, etc.

For example, if you "Just want as much throw as possible", you can get a laser, and kick major *** in that department.

If you want to be able to tell a dog from a coyote at 500 meters, you need to put at least ~ 1-5 lux on that critter depending on your night vision. 1 lux at 500 meters requires a 250,000 cd light, and 5 lux would require 1,250,000 cd...not pocket sized lights for example.


If you need to FIND out IF there's a coyote hiding out there...a teeny spot of light is hard to SEARCH with, its like search a large area while looking through a paper towel tube type view....and if Wiley is MOVING, well, you might search every square inch, but, not the square in he was in at the same time, etc.


So, you might HAVE maximum throw, and, not find Wiley....even if he's w/in range.

To maximize the amount of light on a target, some beams are very concentrated, and, light up less BETWEEN you and the target. This is good if you are just aiming, etc, but, again, if you don't already KNOW WHERE the target IS, well, you can light up stuff behind the target, and not see the target closer to you than you thought, etc.


For Wileies, etc...some people use a big 'Ol flood to hit large tracts at a time, and look for eye shine to pin point targets, then use the tighter throwers to aim at them/examine target details (Is it Fido or, Wile E?), etc.

 

[mattevt]

Just offering a clarification....

Thank you for this post. It really helped me understand some things I had struggled with. Unfortunately, many manufacturers don't list the relevant data for which I am looking. For example, I didn't know whether I wanted a Maelstrom MM-X or MM-S. One has a greater output, but the other has a tighter beam profile, but the only specs listed on the FourSevens website are runtime and lumen output. I guess I'll check out that Super Thrower. I wish the Throw Master heads weren't so expensive.

 

[Cereal_Killer]

MFG's specs are rarely the best source of data, try looking for reviews and data collected from independent reviewers for the specs your after.
I have seen a couple of aspheric lens multi-D-cell maglights modded into super bright lux/Cd throwing lights built for around $50-75 bucks, and they throw a beam like a $200+ (or more) store bought ligt.

 

[Poppy]

Just offering a clarification:

You can't SEE lumens. Lumens essentially represent what the light is sending downrange. ALL you CAN see are the photons/light that bounces off a target, back to your eyes. The brightness of the TARGET is what you DO see, and, that is measured in cd or lux.

<BIG Explanatory SNIP>

For Wileies, etc...some people use a big 'Ol flood to hit large tracts at a time, and look for eye shine to pin point targets, then use the tighter throwers to aim at them/examine target details (Is it Fido or, Wile E?), etc.

TEEJ... you're the best! Thanks for saying what I wanted to say, so much better. :)