Oh the irony.........

[Diesel_Bomber]

Most of us here in the Automotive Lighting forum lambaste anyone who installs HID kits in their halogen headlights, and for good reason. Yet I often see an advertisement for a company selling precisely those kits on the Automotive Lighting page. :thinking:

 

[was.lost.but.now.found]

What's wrong with aftermarket HID kits? Could you elaborate?

 

[Diesel_Bomber]

Read here.

The gist is that an HID bulb in a halogen housing completely fubar's the beam pattern. In a reflector, this generally blinds the crap out of everyone on the road. In a projector, the cutoff is maintained so the chances of blinding other people are lowered, but the distribution of light under the cutoff is still fubar'd. Even if you lower the aim on your reflector-HID-conversion enough to keep from blinding people(unlikely to be possible), you're now flooding your foreground with light. Brightly lit foreground = pupils shrink = distance vision, where it's still dark, is shot. Despite the best aiming and best beam pattern, there will still be times when your headlight beam will nail other drivers, and therefor there are maximum permitted brightness levels, so that even when beam-swept, people aren't completely blinded. OEM HID headlights distribute the extra light around the beam so that no one point in the beam is over the maximum brightness level, but halogen headlamps converted with an HID kit have no such engineering. They have no engineering at all.

HID kits are also illegal.

 

[rayman]

I'm not that much into automotive HIDs but I know that one big problem is that the reflectors of the halogen lamps are not suited for an HID bulb. So it could happen that you blind oncoming traffic with such a kit.

rayman

 

[was.lost.but.now.found]

Read here.

The gist is that an HID bulb in a halogen housing completely fubar's the beam pattern. In a reflector, this generally blinds the crap out of everyone on the road. In a projector, the cutoff is maintained so the chances of blinding other people are lowered, but the distribution of light under the cutoff is still fubar'd. Even if you lower the aim on your reflector-HID-conversion enough to keep from blinding people(unlikely to be possible), you're now flooding your foreground with light. Brightly lit foreground = pupils shrink = distance vision, where it's still dark, is shot. Despite the best aiming and best beam pattern, there will still be times when your headlight beam will nail other drivers, and therefor there are maximum permitted brightness levels, so that even when beam-swept, people aren't completely blinded. OEM HID headlights distribute the extra light around the beam so that no one point in the beam is over the maximum brightness level, but halogen headlamps converted with an HID kit have no such engineering. They have no engineering at all.

HID kits are also illegal.

Thanks for the detail. I always wondered how they "did it", that is, accomodate for the different beam pattern. I gues now I know the answer, they "don't".

 

[-Virgil-]

Most of us here in the Automotive Lighting forum lambaste anyone who installs HID kits in their halogen headlights, and for good reason. Yet I often see an advertisement for a company selling precisely those kits on the Automotive Lighting page. :thinking:

Money talks!

 

[kingofwylietx]

Perhaps they are only marketing towards the off-road market?

 

[-Virgil-]

Uh...yeah, the "off road market". They're for "off road use only". Nudge-nudge. Wink-wink. Hint-hint. :roll:

 

[TorchBoy]

Re: Oh the irony...

HID kits are also illegal.

Laws vary around the world, but my understanding is that generally the kits themselves aren't illegal, but using them on road installed in halogen fittings is illegal just about everywhere. I note that one laser retailer has an ad on CPF pointing out shining a laser at an aircraft is a felony. I have my doubts that a similar disclaimer for HID kits would have any affect at all.

I presume the specific irony you refer to is rule 11? You agree, through your use of this BB, that you will not use this BB to post any material which is knowingly illegal or promotes illegal activity.

 

[Diesel_Bomber]

Re: Oh the irony...

Good point, TB. You're right, possession is not illegal, only on-road use, and laws do vary.

 

[TorchBoy]

Re: Oh the irony...

But do the ads encourage illegal activity?

 

[Diesel_Bomber]

Re: Oh the irony...

HIDextra.com

No specific use is mentioned. I don't blame them, promoting on-road use would be illegal and open them to liability should an accident be caused by their product.

 

[DM51]

Re: Oh the irony...

This is an interesting discussion, and I for one would welcome guidance from you experts about the exact legal status of these items. Can I take it from the posts above that possessing them is not illegal, but using them on a public highway is?

It might be useful if we had a definitive legal pronouncement that could be used in future cases to settle arguments/disputes. Rule 11 is helpful in such matters - if an activity is illegal, it is not allowed on CPF:

You agree, through your use of this BB, that you will not use this BB to post any material which is knowingly illegal or promotes illegal activity.

A thread was closed yesterday where a new member was trolling about this; I reminded him about Rule 11 and he continued to post despite my warning. The thread was closed before I returned to it.

 

[-Virgil-]

Re: Oh the irony...

Good point, TB. You're right, possession is not illegal, only on-road use

Wrong. Importation, introduction into interstate commerce, selling, and (for money) installing "HID kits" are all Federal crimes.

 

[Diesel_Bomber]

Re: Oh the irony...

Right, but if you're not the one that imported them, introduced them to interstate commerce, bought them, or installed them for pay..............mere possession is still legal, right?

I assume it's part of FMVSS108, could you point me to the correct area?

 

[fangle]

Re: Oh the irony...

Wrong. Importation, introduction into interstate commerce, selling, and (for money) installing "HID kits" are all Federal crimes.

Is this true for all, or just those sold as automotive kits? I've always wondered about converting non-auto lights like spotlights.

Thanks.

 

[TorchBoy]

Re: Oh the irony...

Importation, introduction into interstate commerce, selling, and (for money) installing "HID kits" are all Federal crimes.

That's interesting. How come so many people in the States sell the things quite openly if it's illegal to do so? :confused:

I'm not aware of anything in NZ that declares selling the kits themselves to be illegal, so how do we interpret or manage Rule 11 in the light of different international laws?

 

[csa]

Re: Oh the irony...

There are a large number of automotive items available in the states that are technically illegal. Go to pretty much any "performance" shop and 3/4 of the stock isn't legal for on-road use. Lighting is specifically bad, given that a great many of the products aren't DOT certified.

 

[Diesel_Bomber]

Re: Oh the irony...

Yep, many performance modifications deactivate emissions equipment. Unless there's smoke pouring out of the tailpipe of your car, it's unlikely anyone will notice until inspection time.

If live in an area without vehicle inspections, well..........

 

[-Virgil-]

Re: Oh the irony...

I assume it's part of FMVSS108, could you point me to the correct area?

It's further up the regulatory chain than that, because it applies to all regulated safety features, components and systems, not just lights. See 49-CFR-571. Basically it says that if a piece of regulated vehicle equipment (such as a headlight, a seat belt, a window, a sideview mirror, a tire, a bumper, etc.) is physically capable of being directly installed on a vehicle certified as conforming to all the applicable Federal standards, then that piece of equipment itself must conform to all the applicable Federal standards, and must be certified. There is no exemption or provision in the regulation for "off road" equipment. If it _physically_ fits, it has to conform. If it doesn't conform, NHTSA can levy large fines and recall orders. There's some grey area in the term "directly installed"; there have been some nonconforming headlight bulbs marketed with extra plastic or metal tabs on their bases to prevent their installation in a certified headlight (until the buyer clips off the extra tab). But there's also the prohibition on selling unregulated vehicle equipment which, when installed, ruins the conformity of a regulated piece of equipment. For example, brake light bulbs aren't regulated, so the first test ("Does it directly fit on a certified car?") doesn't apply; there's no such thing as a certified brake light bulb. BUT, because the conformity of the brake light itself depends on the performance of the bulb, it's illegal to sell, import, introduce into interstate commerce, or (for money) install a bulb that doesn't work correctly, such as an "LED bulb" in place of a filament bulb. There's also a special section just for headlight bulbs (49-CFR-564), which is what nukes HID kits, legally speaking.

No, it's not Federally illegal to possess an "HID kit", nor are vehicle owners regulated by the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards or any Federal law pertaining to them. Rather, vehicle owners (and registered vehicles, etc.) are regulated at the state level.