OT: Saw The Passion (thread caution!)

[pedalinbob]

[ QUOTE ]
Rothrandir said:
given imcomprehensible amounts of time, incomprehensibly impossible things can seem comprehensible /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

or so they say... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL!

yeah, i still dont discount the possibility that it was all random chance.

its that darn logic again...

Bob

 

[_mike_]

[ QUOTE ]
Rothrandir said:
given imcomprehensible amounts of time, incomprehensibly impossible things can seem comprehensible /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

or so they say... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Inconceivable!

Mike

 

[chamenos]

phil_b: welcome back /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif the thread seems to be taking a turn for the better...i'm keeping my cursor poised over the "edit" button though /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

pedalinbob: i understand, and have thought the thoughts you posted, and this is my take on it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif :

regarding creation vs evolution, i'm sitting on the fence for this one (leaning more towards evolution though). the theory of evolution and how the first living cell was created is just that - a theory. if any point of time in the future, evidence comes along to disprove that theory, new theories that are supported by the new evidence will be created, until new evidence comes along again to disprove it. until one comes along that satisfies me, i'll continue sitting on the fence whilst having a slight bias towards evolution /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

i think its inherant of human nature to seek an explanation for everything around us, and that need to explore and discover has spurred on the pursuit of science and religion alike. in centuries past, long before easily explanable natural phenomenon such as lightning, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions and the like could be explained by science, people attributed it to the wrath of gods (as an e.g.) in a feeble attempt to seek an explanation for everything at the expense of rationality. (people at that time couldn't really blamed due to the absence of science though)

when science came along, people no longer feared such natural phenomenon, as they could be explained and even overcome due to science.

my point being that (IMHO) religion is in many ways a short-cut of sorts to seek an explanation for things we cannot understand (origin of life) or fear (e.g. death). again, i mean no offence as this is purely my heathen atheist opinion /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

for all we know, life on earth may have been created by aliens from other worlds that paid earth a visit. who knows? and then again there's the question of who created the aliens /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif in any case, just because we may not have an explanation for something, doesn't mean we should jump on the most convenient explanation available, and throw rationality out of the window in our unending quest for answers to whatever questions we might have.

i'm happy not having an explanation for every question i might have, and i don't see the need to, especially if it requires me to be illogical (by my standards) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[pedalinbob]

well stated, winston!!!

i am often torn between agnostic-like-tendencies and faith based ideas. its my science/logical mind that pulls me in BOTH directions. strange, huh? i can actually argue with myself.
hmm. that doesnt seem healthy. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

but again, i can certainly see evolution/creation/religion from many sides, without feeling threatened.

i think it was einstein that stated something to the effect that curiousity is his god. i guess i am similar, in some way.

this is really a great thread. excellent exchange of ideas.

Bob

 

[chiaroscuro]

I notice that there is now a thread on "the passion" in the CAFE now. Perhaps we should honor Peter Gransee's request and remove ourselves there to continue this most interesting and eclectic conversation?

 

[kitelights]

Winston - Thanks for the reply. To respond to you and Metalhed, believers do feel the same discrimination that you do. I can understand how you feel, but it's really a matter of perspective. If you're a minority in whatever environment you're in, then you'll feel it. This thread is a good example. Present are believers, non-believers, agnostics and atheists.

This was a thread about a movie that is about a deeply faith oriented topic. "Did you see it and what did you think about it." So why do people who don't even think that the subject of this movie exists come on the thread and argue and discredit the beliefs of those that do believe? That is a type of discrimination. It exists, I feel it.

Now, I'd like to thank both of you for your perspective. I oppose your beliefs - I feel that I have to, to protect my own beliefs because I believe that I am constantly under spiritual attack for my faith. Yes, I do believe in heaven and hell and God and the devil and that they oppose one another. And for the devil to "win" my life doesn't mean that I have to join a satanic church and worship satan. I only have to not believe in God. I'm one that believes that the devil's best weapon is the lie, "I don't exist." That's even more subtle than "God doesn't exist."

Anyway, I appreciate the gentiel manner that both of you have presented your points. I never thought that I could dialog with an atheist/agnostic. Thanks for proving me wrong. And thanks for coming back aboard.

James - you had a great perspective on what, how and why the Jewish people feel threatened by this film. And accurate, I believe.

JS - PLEASE come back. I so enjoy your comments. I wish I had more time.......

Alanhuth - you sir are more of a believer than many believers that I know. Much more than just knowledge and tolerance, but a very special spirit.

I hope to see the movie this weekend.

 

[cosco]

I do not know if I can dare to post something here when the topic moved to Cafe. But I am itching to. Have to visit Cafe first.

Edit: OK, the thread in the Cafe is (should be) about the movie. I am not going to hijack it and I do not think it will be good to use this thread for more general discusion despite of it has beed done allready.
Waiting for another thread in the Cafe.

 

[Bill.H]

[ QUOTE ]
alanhuth said:
I'm curious what's going to happen to Mel Gibson. Lately I've seen the likes of Pat Buchanan and Pat Robertson singing his praises and people like Katie Couric going after him. He used to be a very popular movie star and director, welcomed at any Hollywood or other establishment gathering. Now, I wonder if he will become a lighning rod, loved by some and hated by others, like Charlton Heston has because of his NRA affiliation.

This bothers me because I think it's grossly unfair for people to go way negative on Gibson because of this movie. He has followed his conscience, pulled off a business as well as cultural coup, and done it against large odds. The worst thing you can say about the movie is that it caused a lot of Christians to renew their faith. For a large section of our elites to find that outcome worthy of scorn is beneath contempt.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Mr. Gibson can afford it if this hurts his career, but I also don't think it will. If he can make successful movies that make money, the "hollywood elite" are not principled enough to ignore that; the money and fame is all they care about, despite what they say. And with the recognition this movie is bringing to him personally and professionally, he's going to be gaining lots of new backers.

 

[haley1]

This country was founded on the right to believe what you want, and the right to express it, among other things. So some need to quite apoligizing and worrying about offending people. If they're offended by it, they shoudn't read it. As for the topic, I beleive! One day we'll all find out who's right. Uh, great lights Peter, make more. May the force be with you.

 

[Negeltu]

Maybe there is not right or wrong. I think it is a curious idea... that right and wrong...good and evil... exist independently of the human mind. Perhaps OtherMutt... you'll NEVER know who's right or wrong. The ultimate divinity... is the unknowable and the knowable... and yet neither at the same time, but not. Perhaps chaos is the mind of god... Silly to discuss anyways... futile.... Maybe we all just discuss it for entertainment purposes.

 

[xochi]

What do you think of this position on the issue? I thought it sort of interesting when I first heard it. Apparently it's a fusion of religious ideas with some of a guy named Dawkins ideas:

Religiousity isn't really a human trait it's just that the mind is very complex and has the ability to ask 'why?'. As a result of these ( and other)characteristics the mind is susceptible to certain 'self sustaining' concepts, like religion, that have developed very effective survival strategies to maintain positions in the mind and culture. The collection of behaviours and practices by which these mental virus' survive, mutate, and multiply has come to be known as our religions.

Empedocles: It's not your place to apologize for the sins of others. This entire thread is about a movie, about a guy, whose place it was (they say)to take responsability for the sins of others.

 

[Traut]

THE MOVIE

I'm not sure who has seen THE Movie yet but I have a problem with Hollywood taking a subject matter that we have fixed notions in our psyches about and trying to change those images. Likewise, my children will never share those original/same thoughts, emotions or images with their parents generation. However, Snoop Dog does a passing job as HuggyBear.

 

[nisshin]

I believe that God has given us the gift of free will. That science hasn't found God yet is a manifestation of this; if science does prove God, then we will be forced into belief. And yet, we are not entirely without guidance because of this ability to ask "why." Couldn't this also be construed as a quest for faith as well as for reason?

 

[GJW]

Survey: 'The Passion' May Be Reducing Anti-Semitism

A new poll suggests fears that "The Passion of the Christ" would trigger anti-Semitism were unwarranted.

A nationwide survey conducted for the Institute for Jewish and Community Research finds that 83 percent of Americans familiar with the film say it's made them neither more nor less likely to blame today's Jews for Jesus' crucifixion.

Nine percent said Mel Gibson's film actually has made them less likely to blame today's Jews, while less than 2 percent said they're more likely to fault modern Jews or Jewish institutions.

 

[StoneDog]

[ QUOTE ]
rycen said:
OT I just want to welcome Tom to CPF.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too, welcome Tom!

Jon

 

[bwcaw]

[ QUOTE ]
xochi said:
What do you think of this position on the issue? I thought it sort of interesting when I first heard it. Apparently it's a fusion of religious ideas with some of a guy named Dawkins ideas:

Religiousity isn't really a human trait it's just that the mind is very complex and has the ability to ask 'why?'. As a result of these ( and other)characteristics the mind is susceptible to certain 'self sustaining' concepts, like religion, that have developed very effective survival strategies to maintain positions in the mind and culture. The collection of behaviours and practices by which these mental virus' survive, mutate, and multiply has come to be known as our religions.

Empedocles: It's not your place to apologize for the sins of others. This entire thread is about a movie, about a guy, whose place it was (they say)to take responsability for the sins of others.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't believe God is a figment of our collective imagination, I believe God is very real, he created you and me, and he sent His Son to die for our sins on the cross. But whether i believe this or not won't change reality. God is still God whether we believe or not.

And since you can't prove God exists, you can't prove He doesn't either, so believeing that God is a figment of our imagination takes just as much a faith as believing he is real. And if christianity is a virus, I hope I am contagious! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Respectfully
bwcaw

 

[StuU]

bwcaw-
Which "god" are you speaking of? Allah? Buddha? The Goddess? The Christian version of God? Mithra? The Egyptian Sun God? The Jewish conception of God? Many people reject the whole idea of supernatural causation of earthly events. How do you know that your concept of "god" is correct and that all the other religions have got it all wrong? 75% of the religious followers in the global population do not believe that the creator of the universe has ever had human children or that dead bodies can be resurrected from the grave.....indeed most are repelled by the very idea.

The problem is that there are a thousand different religions and all feel that their concept of "god" is the only correct one. They feel this deeply enough to attack and kill followers of other religions or non-believers on a regular basis. The 911 attackers probably went to their fiery deaths shouting "Allah alla allahu" (God is great) and viewed their sacrifice as the ultimate tribute to their god.

Religious belief definitely has many dark aspects along with the positive aspects.
StuU

--------------------------------
"I do not feel obliged to believe that same God who endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect had intended for us to forgo their use."

-Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

 

[bwcaw]

Stuu,
I believe in The God. The only God. The God of the universe, the God who sent His Son to die for me on the cross so I and all other people could have eternal life with him if we acccept that gift and put our faith in Him. And yes, according to the book he has given me, all other religions ARE wrong. He is the only God. There never was nor ever will be any God but him.

This is not the politically correct version of "religion" where everybody has to say that there is no absolute truth, and you can believe in whatever god you care to, but if you do that your religion is worthless because you don't truly believe it. You can take this any way you like, I am NOT trying to flame you, this is what I truly believe, and will not be changed.

 

[chiaroscuro]

C'mon,guys. Take it to the CAFE.

 

[Gransee]

Please pick this up in the Cafe.

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread!

Peter