Petzl 2009 models!

[cave dave]

Wether you like regulation or not is perhaps a question of taste, but regulated lights are usally more efficient than unregulated ones because you get usable light for a longer time.

I believe that is almost universally untrue. In particular with Alkaline its definitely untrue. Although as others have said it depends on what you define as "usable" and of course individual converters have varying efficiencies.

If you consider 10% of original brightness as "usable" then the unregulated will always win.

There is a battery death spiral effect with regulated lights. As the voltage in the battery drops the current demand goes up which causes the voltage to sag even more and the current demand to go up, etc. High current draws like this on alkalines are very inefficient at the battery.

If both a regulated and unregulated converter were the same efficiency the area under the runtime graph would be the same, but the curves would be different. So you might have the following results.

Regulated:
2hr flat runtime, drop to zero in just a few minutes at the end

Unregulated:
4hr sloping runtime, 45% after 2hrs, 8% after 4hrs, then a long tail of moon mode

I actually spend a lot of dark time with non-flasholics using headlamps. Often 6-10hrs at a time underground caving.

Here is what I have found:
1) Nobody uses rechargeables, I've tried to convince them but everybody uses alkaline, they may have tried in the past but they had bad experiences or too lazy/forgetful to recharge, so never again. (There misguided experience is that rechargeable = less bright, short runtimes, high self discharge)

2) Unregulated lights like Petzl dim slowly enough that you simply don't notice the dimming while caving. You're eyes adjust faster than the lights dim.

3) Non-flasholics won't change batteries till the last dying glimmer of the bulb or emitter. My guess would be about 1/20th of the peak brightness. :thinking:

4) They won't even change batteries between trips either, so they may start the second day trip at 25% of the peak brightness. (actually it starts at near 100% as there is some battery recovery over night, but brightness drops off quickly). And yet they DON'T notice. In fact they brag about how great there Petzl is and that they have done 3 cave trips on one set of batteries.

Conclusion:
Petzl knows what they are doing by going unregulated. I would still like to see a waterproof 1AA multi level with reflector headlamp that starts at a very low low, though.
:poke:

 

[North61]

I am a bit of a rookie so go easy on me. Up here in the arctic the Lithium batteries are a big plus on -35C trips. So the upgrade on the Petzl Myo RXP are welcome. I can't wait for mine to arrive

Looking at the figures on the Petzl fact-sheet it appears that on Alkalines after the regulated run on the RXP you have a fairly long time of slow death as outlined by cave dave. The lithiums will likely die faster during the slow death phase.

So I am not sure that there is a huge difference but I think I will appreciate the regulation. On step 9 and 10 the light is unregulated so it appears I have both features anyway.

 

[tnuckels]

Plus, don't rechargeables, with their more constant discharge levels, provide the "appearance" of regulation by flattening out the output light level curve?

 

[uk_caver]

I believe that is almost universally untrue. In particular with Alkaline its definitely untrue. Although as others have said it depends on what you define as "usable" and of course individual converters have varying efficiencies.

If you consider 10% of original brightness as "usable" then the unregulated will always win.

But strictly speaking, with a multilevel light, if 10% of the maximum/initial brightness would do, someone could always select a level closer to that to start off with.

There is a battery death spiral effect with regulated lights. As the voltage in the battery drops the current demand goes up which causes the voltage to sag even more and the current demand to go up, etc. High current draws like this on alkalines are very inefficient at the battery.

That can certainly be true of some regulated drivers, and may be true of the ones you most often encounter, it isn't necessarily true of all of them.

 

[tnuckels]

Well, they finally got around to this HERE. The site is not without errors (the main picture HERE couldn’t even be fixed by turning on “compatibility view” to get the call outs to line up with the picture), but gives you a good idea of where they are going.

It would appear that much of what the OP told us has come to be.

 

[276]

They really don't look bad at all!

 

[tnuckels]

Questions & observations …

I guess the intro “splash” isn’t ready, as pressing play on the root directory screen gets you nothing.

Interesting that despite still being rated IPX4, Petzl claims the lights will continue to work even if water gets in. Hover over the water resistant icon and read the help balloon. Maybe that’s why they appear to have semi-transparent bodies now, so you can see if there’s any H2O in there. Wonder how well that’s gonna’ work in real life?

It’s nice that they support all standard primary and rechargeable battery types. Wonder if all the new lights contain the RXP fuse fix, or if they came up with some other workaround?

Wonder if they’ll still offer the green and blue diffusers for the XP, now that red is taken care of on the Plus and above lights, or if the colored lenses for the lesser models will still be available?

Wonder if the ADAPT system stayed the same, or is new to accommodate the newly similar-across-the-product-line rear body compartment. The faces appear different to get the most out of the LED arrangement within the particular light. Bummer only the XP gets the diffuser, but I guess you have to differentiate your product line somehow.

I hate to see BOOST go, as well as a medium setting. How hard could it be to allow medium within the IC’s programming and maybe add an extra SMC on the board?

A 50lm + red Zipka should make the ultra-light campers happy.

I like the new button and UI, as well as the easier battery compartment, but the new colors make them mostly look like kid’s toys ... or yummy candy for CPFers. Only the black/grey looks serious and though I love all things green, most of their green lamps, ranging from “lime green” to “pistachio”, look just about silly.

I wish they’d say whose LEDs they are using, but as quick as things are changing I suppose it’s a good idea not to specify.

BTW, I detest their new website design that forces an artificial SPORT / PROFESSIONAL dichotomy on users looking for information. How the hell am I supposed to know where the cutoff is in a line of products?

 

[Ralph_S]

Other than a few quibbles below, I like the Tikka2 changes.

I too will miss the medium brightness mode. I use headlamps for extended periods, and I repeatedly adjust the brightness to the situation, for the sake of run time. I hope that Petzl will reconsider this decision.

The Tikka2 site says, "They work even when water enters the lamp body." That had been noted earlier by a couple of posters on the caving site http://www.forums.caves.org. Maybe the circuit boards are coated, which is a good practice in general.

I hope that the Tikka2 XP will allow the light to be tilted down further, while still under control of a ratchet or friction. I wear trifocal glasses, so I have to look through the lower part of my glasses to see something close. With the current Tikka XP Adapt, I have to turn the light down beyond the stop that allows opening of the battery compartment. In that position, the angle is not controlled, and the weight of the light makes it flop forward to its maximum downward angle.

Also, I may put the headlamp on upside down and aim the light at the ceiling (for example in front of my bathroom mirror), to get a dim but very diffuse light. Again, I want to be able to control the angle.

I hope that the easy mounting of the new Adapt system does not mean that the lights easily can be bumped out of the mounts (hinges).

I too think that some of the colors are too flamboyant.

I do not like the slightly wider top strap on the mid-2008 Myo XP, which makes it difficult to slide the strap through the adjustment clip, whose width was not increased. Light tension and no twisting are placed on the top strap, so a wide strap is not useful, but makes the light slightly bulkier to stow. It is the horizontal strap that benefits from some width as it resists twisting which occurs because the light and battery compartment stick out. So, I hope that the wider top strap is not used for any new Tikka XP Adapt system.

I realize that a while ago, some people asked Petzl for a wider top strap on the Myo XP, but I think that request was not justified by the physics. (If you don't want to think about physics, consider a common female undergarment: the back strap in general is wider than the shoulder straps.) Petzl had the top strap right to begin with, for example in 2007.

 

[bansuri]

3xAAA is a dealbreaker. Obviously the products are already designed, in manufacturing, the whole distribution chain is in place and my little comments don't mean anything, but I, and I'll admit I'm no expert, cannot understand why they would make them with this battery size across the whole line?

 

[tnuckels]

3xAAA is a dealbreaker.

I’ve head this expressed often, but usually unaccompanied by an explanation.

The only time I’ve had a problem with 3xAAA is when this power source requires an awkward, often fragile and prone to making poor electrical connection, battery carrier. After dealing with this setup in some of my earlier, inexpensive Garrity lamps, I will never buy another product that incorporates this design. Yes, 3xAAA allows for a less sophisticated electrical design, but so long as it works reliably, it seems a relatively light weight, easy to find, inexpensive arrangement that gives acceptable runtimes.

Sure, AA is arguably a better power source, but it also increases size & weight, or if you drop to 2xAA to compensate to the first two drawbacks, electrical complexity will increase to allow for boosting the power to the LED(s). From a manufacturing standpoint, simple will probably always win, especially in an enrty level lineup of products.

I have 3xAA (RXP) and 4xAA (no-name) headlamps and they serve a purpose, but find myself reaching for the smaller 3xAAA (EOS & XP) lamps more often than not for most common tasks.

If there is there some other inherent (read: not based simply on a manufacturer’s design choices) problem with the 3xAAA power source that I am unaware of, please enlighten me. Odd number of batteries on the charger doesn’t countJ.

 

[half-watt]

...I, and I'll admit I'm no expert, cannot understand why they would make them with this battery size across the whole line?

Not sure that Petzl's entire "line" is going 3xAAA.

The Tikka/Zipka series has always been 3xAAA. It's Petzl's smaller series of HLs that competes against similar HLs from Princeton Tec, Black Diamond, Mammut, PrimeLite, and Brunton to name just some of the bigger names in HLs (my apologies to any if I didn't name their favorite Mfr). They all use 3xAAA for power in these smaller HLs.

The Myo series is 3xAA and the Duo series 4xAA (or 4C for the DuoBelt versions).

In addition, there is there top-of-the-line rechargeable Ultra series.


BTW, "series" is the actual name on the Petzl website for each of their various classes (or series) of lights.

So, you might say that the Petzl "line"[-up] is composed of several "series" of HLs.

Hope this helps

 

[bansuri]

Petzl "line"[-up] is composed of several "series" of HLs.

Sorry. Series it is.

If there is there some other inherent (read: not based simply on a manufacturer’s design choices) problem with the 3xAAA power source that I am unaware of, please enlighten me. Odd number of batteries on the charger doesn’t countJ.

AAs are ubiquitous, contain more energy per cell, and the NiMH options are far better, that's enough for me.
No doubt they make some nice headlamps, but I wouldn't reach for one of these in an emergency unless you had a spares carrier. AAA doesn't do it for me. Personally, I would take the penalty of the rear-mounted AA's of the MYO series. As always, YMMV.

 

[hopkins]

aaa batteries are very lightweight so taking along an extra set of 3 is an easy choice. AA's are a bit heavier but also not too extreme to take an extra set.

Although we've blogged to exhaustion the curious and probably harmless
radio frequency emissions that leak from regulated headlamps I still like
my original Myo Xp and it does not emit.

Is the new Myo Xp also radio quiet? I can imagine the white RXP will make an AM radio
squeal like a banshee with that custom controller chip inside.

Anyone confirm this. Just curious.

 

[tnuckels]

AAs are ubiquitous, contain more energy per cell, and the NiMH options are far better, that's enough for me.

Most stores that sell batteries seem to carry both AA & AAA, though perhaps more devices run on AA, requiring wider availability. As gadgets become less power hungry this distinction may lessen, with C & D cells becoming harder to find.

I am a huge fan of rechargeables and the AA format and find it difficult to get worked up over AAA batteries when AAs that offer about 2½ x the power can be had for the same money. The notion I mentioned, and that half-watt clarified, was that these are Petzl’s entry level lights, are meant for entry-level, everyday tasks, and as such a small, light weight, and more simply designed headlamp works well.

… but I wouldn't reach for one of these in an emergency unless you had a spares carrier.

Nor would I prefer to reach for one of these to go into battle, but fortunately 95% of my life is conducted without the sense of urgency and dire consequences of a life & death situation. I mostly use these 3xAAA lamps around the house, camping, and on vacation, but I have used them to change a flat at night and do some family caving. However, when I think of the qualities needed to adequately perform more dangerous tasks, reliability and performance, I’ve not been let down by them on either count.

As the situation becomes more serious, so too are my precautions, carrying enough extra batteries and headlamps on the family caving trips to send me straight to the bottom, should I ever slip near deep water. Eventually I bought an up :poke:“series” light from Petzl, the MYO RXP, because I wanted to do somewhat more serious caving and balked at carrying quite so many levels of redundancy each time.

For me, however, none of benefits of better power sources detract from the day to day usefulness and pleasure that I derive from these little headlamps.

Is the new Myo Xp also radio quiet? I can imagine the white RXP will make an AM radio squeal like a banshee with that custom controller chip inside. Anyone confirm this. Just curious.

Hi hopkins. RXP produces a pulsating hum when moved close to the speaker of a radio tuned to AM frequencies, whereas my Tikka XP is quiet, save the popping noises made when changing lighting levels. Sorry, no wailing banshees. However, if I align my fillings just right I think the chip is telling me I love all things French.:laughing:

 

[half-watt]

3xAAA HLs are popular with LW and UL backpackers, amongst others, due to their generally smaller size cp. to AA powered HLs, and their lighter weight. That 'bout sums up the two major reasons for their popularity.

Even though I used to do ultralight backpacking (5-10 lbs of gear not counting food, fuel, and water), not all, but most of the time I would opt for a 3x or 4x AA (not 3xAAA) powered HL, due to the amount of before sunrise hiking that I would do. Moving about at the coldest time of the day (er...night) means that my body is generating heat at the coldest times, and I can skimp a tad on insulating clothing and use a slightly warmer rated sleeping bag and so carry less weight - always a plus. This weight gain was probably offset by using a HL that weighed twice what a 3xAAA HL would weigh, but the longer burntimes of the AA cells was required for my purposes. Depending upon how many days I would be out and about, spare cells may or may not be required when starting out with fresh AA's.

If I was backpacking with others, then a 3xAAA HL would be fine for me as most don't like to get up at 0200 when "nature calls" and also decide to break camp and set out on the trail at this time.


REG. VERSUS UNREG.
--------------------
As far as reg. v. unreg. HLs go. Personally, I don't care. Unless there is something else in the design and functioning of a HL that makes it stand out from the competing models, or makes it more appropriate for my use, it doesn't matter to me. Why?

One often uses a HL when camping or backpacking for extended periods of time - whether in camp or out on the trail. In an unreg. design, the light o.p., even on HIGH, drops off so slowly that the eye and brain DON'T really notice the drop-off until it's maybe at just 25% of its starting value and this often only occurs after HOURS of continuous use. Only then does one typically notice that things out in the distance are not being perceived clearly or at all (depending upon the distance one is trying to see). This was certainly true for me where on trails in dense forest I could typically only see 30' to 60' (~9m to 18M), and really only needed to see this far to follow an unfamiliar trail.

You see, it's different out there, when one is NOT focusing on a fixed point at a fixed distance (in which case the dimming light would be notice far more quickly). Out there, the "scenery", so to speak, is constantly changing as one moves along the trail. There is, generally, no fixed point of reference for one's memory to retain and compare to. Hence, it is often, in my experience, only at around the 25% mark for HIGH output, and maybe a higher percent, ~50%???, for MEDIUM output (but MED on most HL burns a lot longer, even to the 50% mark, than one would use the HL continuously) - remember these HLs are NOT like flashlights as they generally use more cells for power than a typical 1-cell or 2-cell handheld and, generally don't produce the MAX lumen output of some flashlight (e.g. 190-200 lumens, esp. since they don't use CR123A's, but consider also that some 2xAA handhelds, today, put out 170-190 lm, e.g., the Quark 2xAA model).

I'm sure that someone may find an exception to my above comments. So, please, take them as GENERALIZATIONS, or the "NORM", and NOT cast-in-concrete absolutes. I wish to start NO arguments with anyone - YMMV, i.e., you know best, from your experiences, what works best for you in your applications. What I've mentioned above comes soley from my own 40+ yrs of hiking experiences in my limited applications (which may be diff. than yours).

Lastly, the fact that unreg. designs often burn longer than competing reg. designs, IMO, is generally NOT a big selling point OTHER THAN for a HL that is used primarily, or solely, for task/proximity lighting. Why? The long "tail-off" of an unreg. design is too dim and NOT useful for nighttime navigation. Hence, in this regard is not better than a reg. design in terms of burntime, IMO (YMMV). Now, again, for task/proximity lighting purposes the long tail-off of an unreg. HL is quite beneficial, IMO.

'Nuff said. Happy trails.

 

[Stevie]

I think Petzl have been quite innovative here, I like the flip up diffusers for spill and I like the idea of the red LED for preserving night vision whilst reading a map at night.

However, what kills the sale for me is the throw and runtime data. If you look at the new Tikka 2 XP, when you initially turn it onto "high" you get a 60m beam. But after just 30 minutes, this beam is reduced to 38m. After 10 hours its down to 17m.

From my own experiences night hiking, about 30m throw is nice. After a night out with the Tikka XP, the 17m range after 10 hours just wouldn't be enough. It's wouldn't do for me putting it on "low" either to try and conserve power, as the throw is again about 17m in this mode. I think Petzl have missed a trick not opting for a "medium" mode also...

Some say that you don't notice the un-regulated lamps dimming - but I bet I would notice the 37% beam drop on high after just 30 minutes use.

This is why I'm going to buy the upgraded PT Eos. Duracell copper tops give 10 hours of 30m regulated light on "medium". Put lithiums in and you can get 6 hours of regulated light on "high" with a 54m beam, which as many know reputedly has a nice bit of spill as well as throw.

Petzl haven't given data for use with lithium batteries, so will be interesting when they do as they say these lamps can be used with lithium cells also.

Just my personal opinions.....sorry Petzl fans!

 

[half-watt]

lack of a medium mode is probably to compete with the PT Eos 2-mode HL.

in both cases, i'm with you - it's unwise to drop a MED mode (as i've mentioned in other Threads about this HL). Often HI is overkill, but LOW is insufficient. MED often makes the perfect output level.

side-by-side, or even one-after-the-other, you will definitly be able to notice -37% light output. However, when you're on the move and have no fixed frame of reference and the light is very gradually decreasing your eye and brain just accomodate to the decreasing output. I wouldn't say that there is absolutely no circumstance on the move outdoors that you wouldn't be able to notice it, but generally you just won't until it gets dimmer, maybe about -50% on MED output, and even -75% on HIGH output.

Only when the light output becomes too dim to accomplish the purpose for which you are using it will you really find it objectionable. There is no hard and fast rule as too how much drop-off is noticeable in this regard. My experience using HLs for nighttime trail navigation is as stated above.

However, in your case, a 17m distance being too little is more liberal than my 9m (minimum and still very, very usable for my purposes) to 18m (almost never need for more when navigating unfamiliar trails in my neck of the woods), and so, i can't knowledgeably speak to your situation which you know best. Therefore, take my recommendations with a grain of salt, please (YMMV).

 

[hopkins]

Thats good news about the RXP's minimal RF output. The interest I have
is in wasted power. ie how big a fraction of battery power is being converted
to the visual frequencies we can see, rather than waste heat or acting as a little radio station broadcasting your location in the radio bands.

 

[tnuckels]

I do not think you can safely make a comparison from one manufacturer’s website to another, much less confidently base a purchase on it. There are simply too many variables involved. This is why we rely on third party reviewers like Consumer Reports, or selfbuilt here on CPF, because they will use the same criteria and methodology to perform each evaluation. Unfortunately, headlamps are still the ******* stepchildren of lighting, and no such information is available … and NO, you can’t volunteer me for the job.

I don’t pretend to be an expert, but let me throw out a few of the variables that may be involved in the process of turning data into the “information” presented on one of the webpages cited:

Was the test unit: cherry picked for best performance, a randomly picked sample, or does it represent an “average” unit based on a statistically significant number of sample units, or is it a theoretical unit that is based on the calculations of the engineers that designed the light of what it “should” be capable of?

What was the chemistry of the battery used in testing: as only Alkaline, NiCd, NiMH, & Li-Ion are allowed (oddly, PT's website omitts rechargeables for the EOS, but it's probably just an oversight) by the two cited manufacturers, Princeton Tec and Petzl, we can limit this to these 4 types. Each chemistry will potentially give a different high lumen mark and will exhibit differing output curves on regulated and non-regulated lights.

What was the capacity of the batteries used: AAAs run from, what, probably 500mAh for crappy cells to over 1000mAh for top shelf brands? That’s quite a range for the pool of energy available, will certainly affect runtime, and may change output figures, depending on how the light’s smarts are designed to handle differing situations.

How was the output curve measured to “50%”: by dividing the highest (lumen or distance) level achieved in half and seeing how long the light lasts to get to that figure, or would dividing the area under the graph of (lumens or distance) in half give a different result given that the final tails are often quite long?

What are the figures measuring: emitter lumens, lumens out the front, number of lumens at some specified distance, or some number of lumens needed to “see” down range that is then equated to a lighted distance?

What was the test temperature: batteries perform differently under different conditions.
Was the tested unit cooled: as do the LEDs and related circuitry in the test unit.

And finally each manufacturer will present their products according to a company philosophy that may skew the data in one of several directions. We all know of manufacturers (far too many) that overstate or misguide us with attention grabbing figures. Then there are those that try and give an honest assessment of their product. And lastly there are those rare birds that understate their product, confident that their facts are good enough to impress discerning users.

Whew!

Nothing against PT (I like my EOS-R a lot), but to Petzl’s credit they do try to make some of this clear in their PDF files, which include the following information:

OLD TIKKA XP
TEST: 20°C Alcaline batteries

NEW TIKKA2 XP
TEST: 20°C

BOTH
Lighting distance
Petzl based all measurements around a value of 0.25 lux. This value is comparable to the light of a full moon on a clear night.
Light duration
Petzl stops measuring the duration when the light output falls below 0.25 lux at a distance of 2 m, because we consider the lamp to be unusable below this level.
Light quantity: lumen (luminous flux)
The measure of luminous flux indicates the total quantity of light emitted in all directions. This measurement is complementary to the lighting distance. In effect, different lighting sources can shine the same distance with different intensities.

If similar information was available at the PT site, I was unable to find it.


The more I think about it, the more I feel that not having a medium setting was a BAD IDEA, as it was often the correct setting for the unique situation at hand and the personal preference of the user.

I concur with half-watt that, because you are usually running a headlamp over a longer period of time, you don’t really notice the output drop-off, unless you were using the light solely for long distance identification. Your eye’s night capabilities adjust and seem to fill in a lot of the blanks. My experience may be mitigated as I only use high capacity NiMH batteries which produce a flatter output curve, but I am usually startled when my Tikka XP flashes its low battery warning.

 

[half-watt]

tnuckels, excellent post. extremely informative and well worded. excellent point you brought up about NiMH cells. glad you mentioned it.

the only thing that i might add is that, unless i'm mistaken (and please correct me if i am wrong), PT may have adopted, as has Black Diamond, the "European" HL manufacturers approach to determining both distance and burntime for their HLs.

the standard uses a nearly useless (other than for task/proximity lighting purpses), 0.25lux (the approximate light produced by a full moon on a clear night, is their claim) at, i be forgettin' 1 or 2 meters.

i have some real problems with this standard. while it's fine for task/proximity lighting (3 to 6 feet/ 1 to 2 meters), it simply won't work when one is on the move in the dark. sure, one might also be able to walk a simple path with the light trained at their feet, but if you need to see out 15-20 feet or more or have any confidence that you haven't missed anything like a trail marker indicating a bend in a trail, then forget it.

furthermore, long before one reaches the 0.25 lux "cut-off", the light output will have, sometimes, many hours before (especially if it's unregulated and running on alkaline cells) ceased to be "useful" for nighttime navigation of nearly any sort - except, perhaps, slowly walking that simple, clearly delineated, non-technical foot path with the light aimed at or near the place of your next footstep.

instead, i wish HL Mfr's adopted a dual standard - keep the 0.25 lux for any task/proximity lighting uses, but also adopt a 50% of starting output for non-task/non-proximity lighting purposes (similar to what is pretty much "standard" among some, not all, flashlight manufacturers). since many HLs are used for both purposes (i.e., proximity and distance lighting), this is, to my way of thinking, the only approach to "specs" that really makes sense if one's SPECS are to be informative and meaningful to a potential buyer/user. The burntime/distance matrix that one often encounters on the packaging or inserts of Petzl HLs (and also some Mammut HLs that i own; also, i seem to recall BD including such with the latest HLs i purchased from BD last year) goes a long way of accomplishing this goal, but I could still wish for a printed in black-and-white 50% number as there is a big time gap b/t the matrix's 30min mark and the 10h mark, and, for that matter, the 30h mark on the matrix. This matrix is fine for lower o.p. levels, but on HIGH, many lights don't make it to the 10h mark and, thus, one is left wondering, when the light reached the 0.25lux mark (much less, the undisclosed 50% of starting o.p. level mark) or when it just flat out "died", necessitating a battery change.

personally, i find the 50% mark a, generally, useful SPEC. very often, at 50% (other than some of my uses on HIGH where minus 75% of the starting o.p. still works for my uses) the light o.p. is no longer fulfilling its original purpose, or at the very least is quite noticeably dimmer in many applications.

'nuff said.