Recommendation for P60 drop-in for weapon light

[TN Cop]

I currently have a Surefire 6P host with a generic led drop-in as a weapon light on my AR15. I have found the drop-in to be unreliable as it will not turn on consistently (probably has been damaged from the recoil or general hard use) and I am in dire need of a replacement.

My requirements for the replacement are:
1. 350 OTF lumens (minimum)
2. 2+ hrs. run time
3. Runs on two CR123 or one 18650 battery
4. 2.8-6V
5. 1 mode
6. Potted & capable of hard use
7. Reliable

Based on the above requirements, I came to find the following Nailbender drop-ins may meet the criteria.
1. Cree XP-G2
2. Cree XM-L2 90+ high CRI
3. Cree XM-L2
4. Seoul P7
5. Luminus SST-50

Lastly, a few questions of the above drop-ins.
1. What are the OTF lumens?
2. What are the full output run times?
3. After full output run times, is there a long/short taper as the voltage drops out of regulation or does the drop-in simply shut off?

I've lurked on the forums for quite a while & have attained a fair bit of knowledge. That being said, I know when I'm in over my head and out of my lane so I thought it best to consult with the experts. I am aware of the Malkoff drop-ins & own one of his M61's that I carry on my belt in another 6p host. The Malkoff is a bomb proof drop-in, but I've read great things about the Nailbender drop-ins as well.

Any assistance or knowledge is greatly appreciated!

 

[Grizzman]

You can find output specs of Nailbender's drop-ins at customlites.com. All of the units you've mentioned surpass your minimum output. Unfortunately, the site doesn't specify run time.

I recently received a 4500K 2.8-6v XM-L2 with OP reflector as my first Nailbender assembly,and I'm very happy with its performance. I've got quite a few Malkoffs, but wanted a high output engine that would run off a single Li-Ion.

As a torture test, I put it into my 12 gauge's 6P and a friend and I ran 50 high velocity 3" magnum turkey loads through it. It survived the torture with no ill effects, which is more than i can say for myself.

The XP-G2 should have significantly longer run time than the XM-L2 variant. i havent run it long enough to confirm the low voltage operation. i expect it to transition to direct drive and slowly dim as voltage drops.

 

[jaycyu]

1.7A drains a Panasonic 18650 3400mAh battery in two hours.
I suggest using a XP-E2 on copper.

Its hotspot will be smaller, but brighter than that of a XM-L2. To see its full potential, the XM-L2 wants high current (5A) in order to be outstanding; it's almost like turning on the main light in the room. Having said that, at this level the XM-L2 is under-driven. The XP-E2 max out at 3A, but at 1.7 it is reasonably driven and enjoys efficiency. At this amperage range, a McClicky upgrade isn't necessary— stock tailcap switch or remote tape will not melt down; however, if the present tailcap spring deforms, an interchangeable McClicky is $7-20.

The XP-E2 can light up the downrange better than both XM-L2 and XP-G2. The spill won't be as bright (still very adequate), but the size of the spill mostly remain the same since it is determined by the depth/diameter of the bezel, not the size of the LED.

With vinhnguyen's driver, the light blinks (it turns off for 0.1-0.2 secs) once every minutes to warn you of low voltage. He solder-fills and pots his pills, and both he and nailbender are now using copper PCB's.

Good color rendition of a High CRI shouldn't be your concern, as some of that benefit comes from reduced output.

Vinhnguyen54 P60 sales thread:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...ns-All-Copper-Bonded-PCBs-even-XP-G2s-MT-G2-)
nailbender P60 sales thread:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?342254-New-Cree-XP-G2-P60-Replacement-Modules

 

[TN Cop]

Thank you guys for taking the time to answer my questions. I've read some other threads and have reconsidered my Nailbender drop-in choices to the following:
LED OTF Lumens
1. Cree XP-G2 350-400
2. Cree XM-L U2 700
3. Cree XM-L U3 800
4. Cree XM-L2 800

I have a few more questions.
1. If "1.7A drains a Panasonic 18650 3400mAh battery in two hours" would I get the stated OTF lumens from the above drop-ins at this amperage?
2. If not, what would be the estimated run time would I get while achieving the above OTF lumen levels on either two CR123 or one 18650?

The run time & OTF lumens I'd like to achieve are something like the JetBeam BC25 (650L/1.5hr), Klarus XT11 (600L/2.3hrs), or the Nitecore MT26 (800L/2hrs). It appears the Klarus & Nitecore use the same XM-L U2 as the one above. If this isn't feasable, I'm not apposed to buying one of these lights to use as a weapon light, I thought it may have been more economical to purchase a new drop in for my P60 host.

Thanks in advance for help.

 

[Grizzman]

I'm curious about this myself, so I'm gonna find out.

I've put one of my AW 3400 mAh 18650s onto my charger to top it off, and will see how long my Nailbender XM-L2 runs, and how it acts as voltage drops. I bought it from the customlite site, so I didn't specify how hard the emitter is being driven. Based on readings at the tailcap, it's driven at 1.7 amps.

I will start the test after I eat dinner and finish mowing the lawn. I don't have a sphere, so this will only be marginally scientific.

Grizz

 

[Grizzman]

At initial turn on, it is outputting 3325 lux in my makeshift integration box (Coleman rectangular cooler with white interior).

7 minutes - 2855 lux
15 minutes - 2675 lux
30 minutes - 2555 lux
45 minutes - 2261 lux
60 minutes - 2002 lux
75 minutes - 1739 lux to be continued.......
80 minutes - 1627, which is roughly 50% initial output
90 minutes - 1402 lux
105 minutes - 753 lux
120 minutes - 118 lux
135 minutes - 3 lux

For comparison:
A 400 lumen Malkoff M61N SHO did 1354.
A 200 lumen Malkoff M61 219 did 766.

I stopped the test at 140 minutes, and the cell measured at 2.95 volts at rest.

Grizz

 

[TN Cop]

Thanks for taking the time to do that test Grizz. If I'm comprehending your test correctly with the XM-L2, I can expect roughly 800 lumens degrading to 400 lumens within a 90 min run time. Is this a correct assumption?

While researching the drop-ins, I found this thread http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...ureFire-amp-Solar-Force-Hosts-Run-Time-Graphs that shows the XM-L U2 having approximately 700 lumens degrading to 250 lumens within a 90 min run time. I also read in a different thread that higher flux bins are only brighter at the same drive levels. Being that the XM-L U3 is more efficient and brighter per the customlights webpage, can I expect the same or better run time & drop in lumens?

Does anyone know what kind of run times I'd get with the XP-G2? I've attempted to find the info, but have been unsuccessful. Oh and thank you jaycyu for the suggestion regarding the XP-E2, but I'd like to have the higher efficiency, output, bigger hotspot/spill of the XP-G2 at the sacrifice of throw. The farthest shot I may have to make would be about 100 yards and that would be pushing it.

 

[Grizzman]

Yes, you are correct that the output drops to around 400 lumens after 90 minutes. Your assumptions on the U3 flux sounds plausible to me.

I should receive a 2.8-6 volt 5000K XP-G2 engine from NB either today or tomorrow. I'm expecting roughly 375 lumens from it, and possibly more throw than the higher powered XM-L2 unit. I can perform a similar test, with it as well.

The 700+ lumen sucker got really warm during the previous test. It's a good thing I used the copper tape. I just remembered that I bought an IR thermometer a few months ago, and I'll try it out for the next test. I was running it in a C2 with standard head. I'm not sure how well it would do with long term rifle-mounted use, with the lack of heat transfer to flesh. This was one reason I ordered the XP-G2.

Grizz

 

[TN Cop]

I've also noticed that the Nailbender drop-ins come in either 1.4 amp or 1.7 amp. Nailbender stated as the amps are raised u get less runtime & more heat. If "1.7A drains a Panasonic 18650 3400mAh battery in two hours" and I ordered a drop-in at 1.4 amps, would that increase the run time at the sacrifice of output or would it be negligible. What would be more optimum or is that dependent on the drop-in?

 

[Grizzman]

The Nailbender engine arrived today.

Here are the lux measurement results using an 18650 cell charged to a resting voltage of 4.15 volts:
XP-G2 - 11,410 lux
XM-L2 - 12,240 lux

Here are the lux measurements taken using two CR123 cells.
XP-G2 - 11,180 lux
XM-L2 - 13,040 lux

That's not too shabby, considering it puts out roughly half the output.

Measured from the tailcap:
The XP-G2 did pull 1.4 amps with a single 18650 and 1.5 amps with two CR123s.
The XM-L2 pulled 1.7 amps with a single 18650 and 2.8 amps with two CR123s. Ya, 2.8. I even tested with a different set of new cells, and got the same result. That's surprising.

Lowering the amperage from 1.7 to 1.4 will definitely lower the output. What I don't know is how much it would be reduced. My guess is that it would barely be noticeable to the naked eye, and well worth it for the increased run time and cooler operating temps.

Grizz

 

[Yourrid]

Dude, go grab a SolarForce L2 Host and a SolarForce XML-U2 as seen here...
Link removed as per the banner at the top of the page - Norm


They cost about 35 bucks and they are retina searing bright. 550+ lumens. I mounted mine on an Elzetta 6 o'clock mount and its BRIGHT. Don't waste your money on a Surefire; they are way over priced. Just my 2 cents. BTW, what kind of AR do you have?

 

[JCD]

Good color rendition of a High CRI shouldn't be your concern, as some of that benefit comes from reduced output.

While high CRI emitters do tend to have decreased output compared to their lower CRI counterparts, particularly compared to cool white offerings of the same model, the decreased output won't be noticeable in real world use. On the other hand, the benefits of high CRI likely will be noticeable, particularly in outdoor use.

 

[TN Cop]

Grizz I can't thank you enough for taking the time to answer my questions. I guess I've narrowed it down to the XM-L2 or the XP-G2. You had originally said the XP-G2 would have a substantially longer run time that the XM-L2. With your last test the XM-L2 basically was 400+ @ 90 minutes using an 18650. I was debating on hand boring my 6P, but my dept. will issue me CR123's so unless I go the XM-L2 route I'll probably stand by on doing that. How long would the XP-G2 run time be, while maintaining at least 350 lumens OTF using CR123? For comparison, the latest Malkoff M61 uses a XP-G2 & states 325 lumens OTF with a 2 hr run time, then about an hr taper.

 

[Grizzman]

I got busy with other stuff the evening I was going to do a run time test with the XP-G2 engine, but I should be able to do that tonight.

I've decided to weapon mount it in a 6P with CR123s, so this test benefits me also.

Grizz

 

[Grizzman]

I've put a couple new CR123s into the 6P and installed the Nailbender 5000K Orange Peel XP-G2 drop-in. The specs state that it should put out approximately 375 lumens. I used the same integration method for this test as I did for the previous XM-L2 test.

Turn on - 1055 lux
7 minutes - 909 lux
15 minutes - 904 lux
30 minutes - 918 lux
45 minutes - 874 lux
60 minutes - 343 lux
75 minutes - 91 lux
80 minutes - 6 lux
100 minutes - 3 lux

I was not expecting these results. My guess is that it dropped out of regulation right before 30 minutes, transitioned to direct drive (which may explain the bump in output) and began the long declining taper. It's possible that it'll do better on a 3400 mAh 18650, but since they aren't an ideal cell for weapon use, it likely doesn't matter. It's still putting out useful light after an hour and 45 minutes, but for it's intended purpose, it was done at between 45 minutes and an hour.

This makes me wonder how the XM-L2 will do when run off CR123s. I need to buy another batch of them, and will probably test it with a couple after they arrive.

Grizz

 

[TN Cop]

I had really hoped the NB XP-G2 would have had a comparable run time to the Malkoff M61. I understand that the NB XP-G2 is initially putting out more OTF lumens and expected the run time to be slightly shorter, but not quite that short. Am I to assume that the NB XP-G2 isn't regulated as well as the Malkoff? I'm not trying to make this a "vs" thread, the Malkoff is the only drop-in I have personal experience with and being both drop-ins use the same LED I would think I'm comparing apples to apples. Although I don't think the NB XP-G2 fits my needs, if I decide to bore my 6p to accept 18650's the XM-L2 does look promising. Trying to find the happy medium between lumens and run time for myself is proving more challenging than I thought.

 

[Grizzman]

I'm a huge fan of Malkoff drop-ins, and own over 15 of them . I bought the XM-L2 version because it would provide great output on a single Li-Ion cell, something Malkoffs won't do.

I recently bought the 325 lumen cool XP-G2 version of the M61, but haven't performed any tests with it. It's spent all its time (after initial outdoor playing) in an Elzetta light on my nightstand. It may be time to see if it really does give full output for 2 hours on a pair of CR123s.

Grizz

 

[TN Cop]

Work has kept me busy as of late, but I'd like to say thanks again to Grizz and all who shared their knowledge with me. I purchased a Klarus XT11 to tide me over till I made a decision about which drop-in I was going buy. I had planned to buy it anyway and I must say I'm overly impressed with this light. As far as the drop-in, I've decided that I'm gonna buy another Malkoff. I'll eventually try other drop-ins (never thought flashlights would be addictive), but with my limited knowledge the Malkoff is certain to live up to my expectations.