ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, firsthand account)

Deanster

Enlightened
Joined
Feb 17, 2002
Messages
590
Location
Seattle
I'm not an engineer, a chemist, or even an experienced modder, but I do know a couple things about systems, and how things fail.

There are plenty of 'every time' failures - when you take one of stock part 'A' and one of 'B', and go through a particular process, you get a failure. Even if it takes a long time and a bunch of work to determine what 'A' and 'B' (or however many batteries at various charge levels, flashlights, or whatever) are, and what the steps or conditions are, you get a failure more-or-less consistently once you've got it worked out.

These are hard to find, but once you've got it hammered out, it's reasonably straightforward to describe what not to do.

Then there are the ones that turn out to be based on variability in the parts involved - in this case, it could be that it takes (for example - I don't know enough to promote a hypothesis), mismatched batteries, one of which has high water content AND a slightly sticky vent so that air expansion during air transportation has squeezed the electrolyte around a bit, the other of which has a high internal resistance, in a light with a stiff spring that was made on the suppliers third machine from the left, which has always cut a little longer than the others.

This type of 'cascading' failure, in which no one item is the 'cause', but when they all line up, you get an unusually high rate of failure, seems the most likely to me for this situation. It may be that the PM6 has an unusually stiff spring, or that some brands of batteries (or ones made on Mondays, or whatever) have more variability, but it's only when they all come together that you get a significant 'event'. It makes testing very very hard, and takes using a fairly large number of samples to get enough 'mix and match' to see what's going on.

Then comes trying to figure out whether you've got a truly 'random' failure - in which battery number 999,685 just came out of the machine wrong, and just happened to match up with flashlight number A7843, which was threaded a touch longer, or if there's some kind of systematic failure, in which significant numbers of lights or batteries share the characteristic that contributes to failure.

This is the kind of question that drives Six-Sigma consultants into a seizures of glee, as they calculate the fees they will charge to assist you in determining the type and magnitude of your variability, and imagine themselves flying back and forth to China in 1st class on your dime a half dozen times before dropping an inch-thick report that explains that you DO have excessive variability, and you should attempt to improve, which you already knew in the first place. They'll be happy to help you with implementing that project, for only a wee retainer...

Kudos to both the OP, both companies involved, and everyone working to assist - it's a joy to watch folks working on solving a problem together, instead of poking each other with sticks and shouting insults.
 

OutdoorIdiot

Enlightened
Joined
Feb 14, 2006
Messages
216
Location
UK
I was rather encouraged by Toppers' experiment, in the sense that this gave me hope that we are not talking about a random failure.

There had been two reported incidents of explosions with unattended old-style PM6's and mismatched batteries were suspected. So Topper gets an old-style PM6, puts mismatched batteries in it, and leaves it unattended. The same (apparently) failure occurs. I am also not aware of anyone else (and I stand to be corrected) that has done exactly what Topper did, and NOT had a failure.

This gives me hope (based purely on statistics, which isn't really ideal) that we can get to the bottom of this particular problem. The conclusion may be what we already know: Try to avoid mismatched batteries. Or it could be that we arrive at a set of factors that reliably causes catastrophic failures, in which case we will all get a very good idea of how to keep ourselves safer when using flashlights like these. This is what I am hoping for, but I know I'm probably being naively optistic. Still, no harm in that, I suppose...
 

Icebreak

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 14, 2002
Messages
4,998
Location
by the river
Deanster -

What a clear presentation of a few basics for analytical methods used in testing systemic failures.

It's almost an obvious bit of logic that a failed component can fail a module that will in turn fail a system.

That one or more less-than-optimally-performing components can fail a module might be a given. But that one or more-less-than-optimally-performing components coupled with a less-than-optimally-performing module can fail a system is an important concept to capture and hold as a possibility. With this captured concept residing on the table, the matrix of cause and effect grows relationally. What is weak and what fails that causes weakness or causes failure that causes systemic failure?

To identify the true cause of a weakness oriented cascade failure is a real challenge and, as you pointed out, can be highly profitable for those contracted to find it.

It could be that what we are discussing here turns out to be, in fact, a weakness cascade failure.

Your last comment speaks to one of the more important facets of this discussion.
 
Last edited:

PlayboyJoeShmoe

Flashaholic
Joined
Sep 4, 2002
Messages
11,041
Location
Shepherd, TX (where dat?)
In the meantime, I think I'll just keep checking the Flash Amps of my 123s before installing them.

Seems like the easiest thing most of us can do.

I guess I'll also watch out for excessive spring pressure too!

But I will keep watching this space!
 

Josey

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jan 5, 2004
Messages
1,015
Location
NW Rainforest
Kevin: Thanks for the work you're doing. Is there a way we can send you small donations to help offset the costs of your investigation? We all benefit from your work, so we can all help. --Josey
 

frisco

Enlightened
Joined
Dec 29, 2005
Messages
736
Location
San Francisco
Wow..... Great thread! Big thank you to those of you trying to figure this out!

If I may add a suggestion, just in case it hasn't been mentioned yet.

For all these experiments, it would be very helpful if the test sessions were video taped. Documentation will be critical proof to manufactures and all involved that there is a problem.

Again, thanks for all the efforts!

frisco
 

brightnorm

Flashaholic
Joined
Oct 13, 2001
Messages
7,160
When my new Surefire M6 arrived yesterday this was printed on the box in big bold red type.

PRIMARY LITHIUM BATTERIES -
FORBIDDEN FOR TRANSPORT
ABOARD PASSENGER AIRCRAFT

This is the first time I have seen this rather Draconian pronouncement. I've flown many times with many lights and I was under the impression that small numbers of lithium primaries were ok but now I'm concerned about an upcoming flight. Has anyone who has flown recently encountered any new problems?

P.S. Lunarmodule. Thank you very much for posting this critically important thread though I'm sorry it was the result of your shock and suffering. I hope you are recovering and that this will soon be just a bad memory. I just voltage tested and then ZTS tested two Surefire 123s I had been using in a G2. One was 2.91v and the other was 3.00v. The ZTS revealed that the lower one was only 40% and the other was 100%. From now on I'll ZTS-test all my lithium primaries.
I just hope the FAA isn't reading this thread!

Brightnorm
 
Last edited:

OldGreyGuy

Enlightened
Joined
Apr 17, 2006
Messages
288
Location
Brisbane, Australia
brightnorm said:
Has anyone who has flown recently encountered any new problems?
Well, two weeks ago I was on a trip that took me through 7 different countries (Australia, Singapore, India, UK, Ireland, Canada, USA) and not once did anyone give me a problem with the half dozen CR123 batteries I was carrying.
 

OutdoorIdiot

Enlightened
Joined
Feb 14, 2006
Messages
216
Location
UK
brightnorm said:
I just voltage tested and then ZTS tested two Surefire 123s I had been using in a G2. One was 2.91v and the other was 3.00v. The ZTS revealed that the lower one was only 40% and the other was 100%.

I don't wish to sound like a one-trick pony (oops! too late!). But again I am tempted to think of heat as being a likely explanation for things like this. A lot of people have mentioned that they put a number of "full" cells into a light, then when they check them after some use, they seem depleted to different levels.

Not only are slight variances between resistances in batteries likely to cause uneven heating, but again I suspect that the bulb is the critical factor. Batteries closer to the bulb are likely to be significantly hotter than batteries further away. And two lithium batteries at different temperatures will have different efficiencies, and therefore deplete at different rates (I stand to be corrected, but I don't think that lithium batteries are immune to these variances in efficiency with temperature).

If that is the case, then perhaps it is not unreasonable to suggest that occasionally rotating the order of batteries might reduce this uneven depletion, and consequently make things a bit safer.
 

Lightmeup

Enlightened
Joined
Aug 3, 2004
Messages
747
Location
Chicago
LM, I agree that those MSDSs are mighty lame. They could put a lot more specific information on them about what to do in these circumstances and the properties of the toxins that you could be exposed to. There was way too much vagueness and ignoring situations that they felt "normally are not experienced by the typical user", etc. The "typical" user isn't the one who really needs an MSDS.
 

Paladin

Enlightened
Joined
Feb 2, 2006
Messages
585
PlayboyJoeShmoe said:
In the meantime, I think I'll just keep checking the Flash Amps of my 123s before installing them.

Seems like the easiest thing most of us can do.

Am I understanding the "flash amps" procedure to involve placing the ampmeter directly across the cell, subjecting it to a VERY low resistance short circuit. I've done that inadvertantly, and it always seems to drop the cell voltage several millivolts.

Why is a fixed resistive load not being used. Say a 10 ohm large wattage resistor was used. The cell voltage under a REASONABLE nominal load would seem to be a better "test" as it would be within the normal operating parameters. How a cell dumps energy into a dead short is NOT related to the design and useage of primary cells.

3 volt / 10 ohm = 300mA, a level several lights run at. And a resistor could be selected that would provide a load representing the nominal current drain of the specific flashlight the batteries would be used in. Having over 30 years playing with electrons, the whole concept of testing into an almost dead short runs counterintuitive to how I understand things. A test that does NOT simulate normal operation is often meaningless. For example, we could drop the cells from a window, and see which ones resist damage better...but that would tell us NOTHING about how recoil from a firearm might batter them.

I fail to see the significance of drawing excessive current from the cells as a test procedure. Perhaps I'm missing something?

Paladin
 

batterystation

Enlightened
Joined
May 6, 2003
Messages
428
Location
West Plains MO
Josey said:
Kevin: Thanks for the work you're doing. Is there a way we can send you small donations to help offset the costs of your investigation? We all benefit from your work, so we can all help. --Josey

Absolutely NOT!!! I have a LOT of flashlights here to choose from for attempted destruction. This thing has just begun. Lunar has donated enough already! I just want the safest flashlights and batteries money can buy (and sell). We will be offering SF batteries on the CPF page in about a week too for those that want them. I believe in our product but also realize that some customers as pointed out in earlier threads want other brands. I respect that and will do my best to accomidate.

The note on the Surefire box is a result of someone skewering a pallet of Lithium Thinyl Chloride batteries at LAX (Los Angeles Airport) about three years ago if my memory serves correct. The pallet caught fire when stabbed by the fork truck. A lot of different batteries would have done the same thing but it just happened to be lithiums.
 
Last edited:

mdocod

Flashaholic
Joined
Nov 9, 2005
Messages
7,544
Location
COLORado spRINGs
Am I understanding the "flash amps" procedure to involve placing the ampmeter directly across the cell, subjecting it to a VERY low resistance short circuit. I've done that inadvertantly, and it always seems to drop the cell voltage several millivolts.

Why is a fixed resistive load not being used. Say a 10 ohm large wattage resistor was used. The cell voltage under a REASONABLE nominal load would seem to be a better "test" as it would be within the normal operating parameters. How a cell dumps energy into a dead short is NOT related to the design and useage of primary cells.-Paladin

As I understand it- flash amps may actually be a BETTER representation of cell capacity than amps into a reasonable load.. 2 cells of significantly different life remaining- could generate very similar current accross a reasonable load and be difficult to distinguish- whereas into a dead short- a parcially depleted cell is more likally to show a comparable and significant variation in results...

In the experimentations I have done with lithium primary cells, sets of cells that all deliver a solid 10-12 flash amps, will generally result in LONG runtimes with even discharge in my lights.. I have also found many "new" cells that will only deliver a reading of around 2-4 flashamps... if I use one of those cells in conjunction with "good" cells in a light- that cell dies quickly, leaving me with many parcially drained cells, and one fully drained cell.. When I use sets of those poor performing cells (the ones that deliver less than ideal flash amps) together in a light- they tend to discharge somewhat equally- but the flashlight does not last as long as it would have with "good" cells...

my "gut" tells me that "flash amps" produce a result that has greater resolution than a test with a normal load... The proof of this concept is the ZTS tester... while it may give some indication that something about a particular cell may be "different" it is very obvious from the testing I have read that the numbers it generates for capacity should be taken with a grain of salt... Kevin was just saying a little while ago that a battery that tested low, and a bettery that tested 100%, both run through a single cell light, generated a runtimes that were nearly equal to the minut.. The ZTS tester- aparantly uses "normal" loads to determin it's results... I think there is too much acceptable variation in "full" lithium cells into normal loads to determin capacity....

I think it would be very interesting to compare what the ZTS tester says- to flashamp comparisons..
 
Last edited:

mdocod

Flashaholic
Joined
Nov 9, 2005
Messages
7,544
Location
COLORado spRINGs
[after] saying that... I thought it would be usefull to try to prove my point..


here's a comparison of 16 cells..
cell number/flash amps/reasonable load
01/08.9/0.76
02/10.2/0.77
03/09.9/0.78
04/10.7/0.77
05/05.4/0.74
06/09.0/0.76
07/08.8/0.75
08/08.0/0.75
09/08.9/0.76
10/11.1/0.76
11/09.7/0.75
12/10.2/0.76
13/05.4/0.74
14/03.9/0.74
15/10.2/0.77
16/10.7/0.77


cells 1-4, and 13-16 are "brand new" fresh from package cells..
cells 5-6 were used in various lights and are in my "unkown" pile.
cells 7-9 are parcially used from a 3 cell flashlight
cells 10-12 are parcially used from a 3 cell flashlight

here's what's most interesting to me..
a cell that produces 10.7 flash amps, produced 0.77 normal load amps
a cell that produces 3.9 flash amps, produced 0.74 normal load amps....
a 275% variation shows up in 1 test, while a 4% variation shows up in the other... which one is more obvious to you?
 

bwaites

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 27, 2003
Messages
5,035
Location
Central Washington State
WOW,

milkyspit was all over this a long time ago!! I found this particularly enlightening in reference to the current thread:

"Anyway, I ALWAYS measure flash amps of the partially used cells that I pull from my lights, then use a Sharpie permanent black magic marker to mark the reading directly on the side of the cell. I store them all upright in a Tupperware container with no lid (so it's more like a tray), with non-conductive spacers (foam, paper, plastic...) filling the empty space so there's no possibility of the cells falling over and perhaps shorting against one another. I keep the cells organized in order of their flash amps readings. Then, when I want to feed the MC2, I select a pair of cells with the same flash amps readings... plus I RETEST the cells just before popping them into the light, because sometimes the readings will have changed while the cells sit in storage. I believe strongly in this, and it's applicable to new cells and other 123 cell lights: NEVER PUT CELLS HAVING SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT FLASH AMPS READINGS INTO THE SAME LIGHT!"

I will see if Scott still has those posts, (he seems to keep everything he ever wrote backed up!) and I can maybe post them in a new thread about cells in the battery section.

Bill
 

OutdoorIdiot

Enlightened
Joined
Feb 14, 2006
Messages
216
Location
UK
bwaites said:
I will see if Scott still has those posts, (he seems to keep everything he ever wrote backed up!) and I can maybe post them in a new thread about cells in the battery section.

Great. I was a bit disappointed that the link to the thread with that quote is no longer valid. I'd certainly like to read the rest of that thread.

It would be nice if a best-practice for matching batteries can be generally agreed upon.
 

greenLED

Flashaholic
Joined
Mar 26, 2004
Messages
13,263
Location
La Tiquicia
brightnorm said:
When my new Surefire M6 arrived yesterday this was printed on the box in big bold red type.

PRIMARY LITHIUM BATTERIES -
FORBIDDEN FOR TRANSPORT
ABOARD PASSENGER AIRCRAFT
...
That only applies to commercial shipments, loaded in the cargo section of the plane. You can take a reasonable amount of primary lithiums in your carry-on.
 

yuandrew

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Apr 12, 2003
Messages
1,323
Location
Chino Hills, CA
Been following this so far. Hopefully, Lunarmodule, you've recovered by now. Those were some shocking pics in the beginning.

I'm still trying to visualize the venting of the batteries; I have some pictures I saved from Pydpiper's 123A experiments and there was one battery he got to vent with a flame by microwaveing it. :) Judging by how the flame is comming out, I can see what it might probably do inside a light.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v499/yuandrew/CPF/1deb7ccd.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v499/yuandrew/CPF/2fa146a8.jpg

There was also the "charge with 120volts AC directly" experiment I suggested. :naughty: Might have to give it a try again in a blast chamber. Pydpiper had it outside and was in his shop when he plugged it in so he didn't see it go off but reported the lights dimming and the yard lighting up in a huge flash.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v499/yuandrew/CPF/845518e4.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v499/yuandrew/CPF/0d4aedc0.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v499/yuandrew/CPF/PICT5963.jpg
 
Top