ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, firsthand account)

[Hans]

Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, underwear change required)

Whow, what a horrific accident. I'm very glad you got out of this without any major injuries. That might easily have been much, much worse.

I want to give a nod of thanks to Newbie and SilverFox and all those who contribute to the lithium ion battery safety threads. Maybe some of you can help me figure out what the cause of this may have been. Time for the budding forensics folks out there to contribute their hypotheses.

I'd love to see a thorough analysis of this accident as well. However, this isn't the first accident of this kind since I started reading CPF, and I'm sure it won't be the last one. I think it would be a great idea to have a sticky in this forum outlining the current knowledge on lithium ion battery safety, in simple, non-technical language. The do's and don'ts of using lithium ino batteries *and* rechargeables. Much of the valuable information is spread over many different threads at the moment and can be pretty hard to find.

I'd love the battery experts like Newbie, Silverfox and all the others get together and write such a post. In the light of accidents like this such a post would be invaluable for people who're not experts in this field, and if only *one* accident could be prevented it would have saved its purpose.

Hans

 

[Alin10123]

Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, underwear change required)

Glad to hear that you are ok. Hope nobody gets hurt again through these cells.

 

[greenLED]

Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, underwear change required)

Lunarmodule, I'm really glad you're relatively OK!

BatteryStation, :twothumbs: and thanks to those people reporting other technical info.

I see the logic behind the unmatched cells, and it seems to me like the most parsimonius explanation. However, I also find it interesting that it seems to be the Peli M6 involved in all these instances (at least the reported ones).

Navck, Kevin has already been contacted and posted a couple of times in this thread.

 

[David_Campen]

Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, underwear change required)

think it would be a great idea to have a sticky in this forum outlining the current knowledge on lithium ion battery safety, in simple, non-technical language. The do's and don'ts of using lithium ino batteries *and* rechargeables.

The event described in this thread was with Li/MnO2 primary cells, not rechargeable cells, not Li-Ion cells.

Li-Ion cells _are_ rechargeable cells.

 

[SRacer2000]

Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, underwear change required)

Oh Oh Oh, Idea!!

New tailcap that has a boot that is a pressure equalization valve. That would let the batteries vent and keep out the water, yes/no.

 

[IsaacHayes]

Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, underwear change required)

Wow, glad you are ok Steve! Did you use hydrogen peroxide to help clean out the glass wounds? There might be particles of glassd dust in the cuts, or chemicals making it burn.

I don't own any lithium batteries, just NiMH, which are a lot safer when they "vent". If I ever do though and one is hissing, I'll hold the ends away from me with my head turned if I can't chuck it in time. Tail cap could become a bullet like the other PM6 that went off. I think the lens shattered from the shear pressure/shock wave, and the gases blew it out while the bulb just went along for the ride. It's amazing what only a few PSI can do when pressing against a large surface. The glass lens could have had a ton of force on it, and then just shattered. Take for example pneumatic potato guns, with the same air tank/psi, if you go to a larger barrel, say from 1/2" to 2", the potato flys out a lot faster, because there is more surface area pressing on it.

I take it single cell lights are way less likely (esp primaries) to do this, since there is no reverse charging. If I ever got lithium-ions it would be for single cells apps anyways.

Once again, glad you are ok Steve!!

 

[bwaites]

Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, underwear change required)

Well, you can't search it anymore, but 2-3 years ago there were reports of Surefires, Streamlights, and Pelicans all having this problem in use by soldiers in Iraq.

The incidents were fairly isolated, but the reports were frequent enough that it made it back to CPF, even though no CPF members were involved.

Cutting edge tech means cutting edge tech. Sometimes the fecal matter hits the rotary oscillator in a manner that is not consistent with good distribution of fertilizer!

Regardless of what WE here on CPF think, 123 cell lights ARE cutting edge. If you don't think so, ask a dozen of your coworkers how many 123 cells THEY have ever bought! We are taking a cell designed for low draw and making it push WAY more than intended. Even though some of the manufacturers like Surefire, Amondotech, and BatteryStation have done everything in their power to redesign that cell and make sure that the cells are as safe as possible, sometimes bad stuff happens under strange circumstances.

I think the Pelican issue is a moot point, it's not an electronic light, its a basic circuit.

DC powered 2 cells, positive contact, light bulb, negative contact, circuit completed with on/off switch. No voodoo, no magic, no electronics programmed to cause maximum damage, no nothing. Just a basic current path, interrupted by a simple on/off contact switch.

These lights have been modded, torn apart, put together, rebuilt to death. The design is solid. The problem is in the cells, not the light. The light is not designed to withstand those kinds of pressures, nor could it be expected to, and so the switch boot failed. That may even be the intended effect in case of catastrophic failure.

But as I said initially, other lights HAVE had similar failures in the past, unfortunately, even then, we couldn't get the info to track what had REALLY happened, and since we don't know for sure what state these cells were in, this evaluation will be conjecture, educated conjecture, but still conjecture!

Bill

 

[mdocod]

Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, underwear change required)

just woke up a few minuts ago and read through this whole thread...

wow Lunarmodule! I'm glad to hear that you are relativally *ok* after this frightening experience...

The "deer into headlights" is exactly what I would probably do if this ever happened to me. I've never been good at thinking fast on my feet in bizzare situations like this...

I really appreciate your warnings, and will take them seriously- I am hoping through your experience (and others) we can be more prepared for what to do when these things start to vent...

I have a hard time believing- that it is mere coincidence that many of the lights experiencing these violent happen to be the PM6... I think it's plausable, and logical, to assume that the flashlight is parcially at fault here- especially when you consider the number of lithium primaries that all the Surefire fans around here are running through those lights on a very regular basis- I'm unaware of any similar experience with any other common brand of tactical light... [edit in] I have just been informed by a previous post (made while posting by Bwaites) that there have been similar expereinces with other lights in the past, none with CPFers however(that we know about) so perhaps my comment without merrit.


The last time one of these blew up- I was telling a friend who uses cr123s in his camera to be carefull.. He didn't believe what I was telling him- so he tried to prove me wrong by taking a handfull of them out back and hooking them up individually to a 12V bench supply for many hours... He was unable to get any of the cells to "vent-with-flame".. I think it requires specific senarios to reproduce the effect however...

 

[greenLED]

Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, underwear change required)

Sometimes the fecal matter hits the rotary oscillator in a manner that is not consistent with good distribution of fertilizer!

...other lights HAVE had similar failures in the past, unfortunately, even then, we couldn't get the info to track what had REALLY happened, and since we don't know for sure what state these cells were in, this evaluation will be conjecture, educated conjecture, but still conjecture!

:thinking: I wonder if we could encourage Pelican and other light manufacturer's to try to (destructively) replicate these events. You know, the standard blind test with reps and the whole thing. Not sure a lot of people on CPF would like to volunteer their lights for this, but a manufacturer should be able to do this (if they haven't yet).

Like I said, unmatched batts seems the most parsimonious explanation to me. When in doubt... destructive sampling, anyone? :devil:

 

[FrogsInWinter]

Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, underwear change required)

Wow, just wow! Sorry to hear about your injuries and your light LunarModule. But I'm glad to hear that for the most part you're OK. Cheers to BatteryStation

for their response to this unfortunate incident.

 

[RAF_Groundcrew]

Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, underwear change required)

I'm sure we're all aware of the danger of mixing new and part used cells, but one thing I've noticed on the Surefire M6 I recently bought is that out of a battery mag of 6 brand new cells, all same brand, they heat up to different degrees... Those of you with SF M6 lights will know that the cells get warm/hot with extended usage, but you would expect all 6 cells to get equally hot? I have found this not to be the case, and I wonder if a different internal resistance is to blame for this.

 

[dano]

Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, underwear change required)

That's an older PM6, as it has a lamp that's seperate from the reflector. Due to a lawsuit, Pelican had to redesign the lamp assembly to elimintae the focusing feature. New PM6's have an integrated lamp/reflector assembly (which is compatible with the older lights).

I'm also guessing that it did not have a clickie switch?

This is the fourth event that I know of involving the venting of 123-type cells, as they were used in a flashlight. Two were Pelican PM6 incans (as documented at CPF) one was a Streamlight Scorpion, and one was a Surefire 9P.

Has Pelican been contacted, yet?

This issue is known to the various manufacturers, and Streamlight has a disclaimer that they are packing with their lithium lights. It's on bright red paper and says:

Warning: Fire, Explosion, Burn Hazard:
Streamlight recommends the use of Streamlight Battery No. CR123A, Panasonic Battery No. CR123A or Duracell Battery No.123 with this product. Use of other batteries or mixing of used and new or different brand batteries may present a risk of leakage, fire, explosion and serious personal injury. Do not recharge, misuse, short circuit, improperly store or discard, disassemble or heat above 212° (100°c). Keep away from children.


--dan

 

[frisco]

Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, underwear change required)

Hey Brah....... take it slow..... hope you heal up quick. If I was there I'd pick you up a Zip Pack from Zippys and a Guava Chiffon cake from DeeLite Bakery !!!!!

frisco

 

[Scythe_rr]

Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, underwear change required)

I've just rushed to take the cells out of my gladius, am i being paranoid?, they are panasonics with about 1 hours full brightness use on them.
Help!
Glad it wasn't more serious, get well soon.

 

[jsr]

Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, underwear change required)

Wowzers! Glad you're ok with only minor injuries Lunar! You should get your foot looked at in case there is embedded glass particles or chemicals from the batteries.

My only really high drain lights are my SL TL-2 and TL-3 incans...now I'm a bit worried. My only other multi-cell light is a Scorpion LED, but the current draw isn't very high, only about 500mA. I was thinking about modding it to push 1A...hmm, maybe I'll rethink that. Scary stuff. I've got the heeby geebies now.

 

[Frank Maddix]

Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, underwear change required)

Lunar,
Glad you are OK.
A few years back I bought a pint of beer in my local pub. As I held it in front of me the glass exploded like a rifle shot. Shards of glass shot past my ears and they were HOT. Some stuck in the window frame behind me.
Point being: Your painful foot injuries may be due to heat as well as chemcal/mechanical factors.

 

[cheapo]

Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, underwear change required)

I know this is a strong statement, but whatever...


If these events are limited to a specific brand or make of light, the manufacturer should test said lights until failures are reproduced, and then implement design changes to prevent future occurances. Mind you I said if...but, at this point I believe the evidence suggests a problem with the PM6. Unless of course other examples of this kind of catastrophic failure has been seen in other lights.

Well, i was told that Pelican has created a "vent hole" as a result of these occurances.

-david

 

[AlexGT]

Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, underwear change required)

So is someone going to do a post mortem analysis of the light / batteries? I would love to see what comes up, I don't think it's only a battery issue.

AlexGT

 

[cheapo]

Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, underwear change required)

i think it all has to do with the combination of the batteries and the Pelican m6s bulb.

-David

 

[CanDo]

Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, underwear change required)

Wow.... Well thank God that you are alright.
It's not a primary concern, but this gas that was jetting out. And all of the pressure behind the explosion... I can't imagine that any of it is good for you...
Any headache/nasuesa disoriented, stuff like that, you may want to see some one immediately. I doubt that it's still a concern since it's been so long since it happened; just for future reference though. For the same reason, make sure that that horrible pain in your foot is from the glass and not from chemical(s) that may have gotten in it.

I think I'll be putting my first mod projects off for a while...