Seeking LED edison base bulbs, enlighten me?

Wurkkos

z_osaga

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I'm looking for an LED replacement bulb for a commercial building and i'm having a hard time finding them, sorting through all the information. I have a few questions...



1. Does anyone know of a quality manufacturer of an E12 candelabra base LED replacement bulb?



2. I see there are different styles, through hole SMD and High power LED chips. High power seems to be the best replacement alternative for incandescent bulbs as they are the brightest. Is there anything to look out for with these bulbs?



3. I have found some manufacturers in China offering 3W candelabra base bulbs, equivilant to a 25W incandescent. Are these companies any good? Viscom. VAR Partners. and Poodar.



4. I believe those companies use CREE or SHARP chips. Is there any issue with ballasts, or overheating, that i should be aware of?



5. Are there any specific questions regarding design that i should ask these companies?





All help is appreciated!
 

LEDninja

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02-22-2011 04:54 PM #2 LEDninja

Before we can help you we need some more information.

What country are you in? Is your power 115VAC 60 Hz, 230VAC 50Hz or other?

E12 base is designed for low powered applications (40W incandescent or less). What are you doing using such low powered fixtures in a commercial building? Are they just accent lighting complementing fluorescent tubes in the ceiling? What bulbs are you using right now?
What tint is being used now? Cool white? Warm white? There is a big difference.
Zetalux-7W450L-vs-6W400Lcool-.jpg


Incandescent bulbs.
100W ~1400 lumens
60W ~800 lumens
40W ~500 lumens
25W ~300 lumens
The brightest candelabra base LED bulb I know is ~225 lumens. Not enough for general room lighting.
Can you switch to 115V/E26 or 230V(220-240V)/E27 base? The selection of quality LED bulbs are much better.

I am doing this off the top of my head. Probably have more questions later.

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"through hole" means 5 mm LED. There is an insulating bubble of air above the LED die and one below. This traps the heat inside the LED and heat kills LEDs. Usually this type dims to 1/2 brightness in 6 months and useless in about a year. Usually 0.25mm*0.25mm die. 20mA(1/14W).

"SMD" has the die attached to the backplate of the LED so the heat can be passed onto a heatsink. Unfortunately many bulb manufacturers do not use a heatsink and the bulb can die just as fast as the through hole type. Usually 0.25mm*0.25mm die. A few (1/2W) are 0.5mm*0.5mm die. 20-100mA(1/14W to 1/2W). LOOK FOR THE HEATSINK IN THESE BULBS!!!

"High power" is an "SMD" or "Luxeon" case with a big die LED. The dies are 1mm*1mm to 3mm*3mm. 350mA to 9000mA(1 to 35W).
The original Lux1 is 30 lumen/watt. The Cree XRE (most common until Cree replaced them with the XP series) is 80 lm/W. The Cree XPE-HEV is 100 lm/W. So there is a big difference between LEDs.

"equivilant to a 25W incandescent" is useless. CFL bulb manufacturers are terrible at giving you misleading specs. LED bulb manufacturers are worse.
I read this in the thread:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?304944-Experiences-of-using-LED-Lights
fadingrae said:
i used 3W Led bulbs from the beginning of this Feb, they are used as the replacement of 40W incandescent ...
For tubes, we are using Led tubes in our office from the middle this July, with the item no. of WS-T10SMD-A 1200mm, the 18W Led tubes are used as 45W fluorescent
Ken_McE said:
So subby is claiming that 260 lumens of cold white is the same as 500 lumens in warm white. Either subby is blind or this is astroturfing. You decide.
Hmm, at 54 lumens per watt, the Wellspring bulb is up to almost half the strength of the T-8 tube it replaces. Go team!!
Stop by anytime, but do it honestly, sign up for a damn advertisement.
Never rely on equivalent to X watts. Ask for the actual lumen number.

"I believe those companies use CREE or SHARP chips." Don't believe. If it does not actually say Cree or Sharp in the product description it is not. The word Cree or Sharp or UL is often put in the top of a page of 20 products and only 1 actually met the criteria.
Look at this page
LED Bulb - quality LED Light Bulbs, dimmable and UL listed
http://www.lotusledlights.com/led-bulb-c-2.html
Only one bulb - LED Light Bulbs 4.3W UL Classified actually have UL MAYBE. UL does not classify the bulb - UL gives it a UL listing not a classification. Using the wrong word may be an attempt to avoid being sued for fraud.
If you are in North America ask for the UL or ETA listing NUMBER or CSA approval NUMBER and check with the labs to make sure it is legit. In Canada it is a legal requirement you use listed/approved equipment. In the US it is not a legal but an insurance requirement.

"Are there any specific questions regarding design that i should ask these companies?"
Any good salesman can bullshit you into forgetting your original question and sell you the bulb.
ASK THEM TO SEND YOU A SAMPLE. That way you can find out what you are getting. Specs out of China is very unreliable.

I bought a 7W Philips LED bulb last year. 7W 155 lumens warm white.
I bought an 8W last week. 8W 450 lumens soft white..
14% more power brings 300% more light!!! They both use Rebel LEDs. The questions you are asking won't discover that.
Phiips8W-front.jpg


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02-22-2011 06:01 PM #3 idleprocess

osaga said:
I'm looking for an LED replacement bulb for a commercial building and i'm having a hard time finding them, sorting through all the information. I have a few questions...

1. Does anyone know of a quality manufacturer of an E12 "candelabra" base LED replacement bulb?
This is going to depend immensely upon your requirements.

What kind of fixture? Enclosed, semi-open, fully open? Indoors? Outdoors? Exposed to the elements?

What kind of duty cycle? 24/7 100% is going to be harder than, say, <5% of the time illuminating an elevator indicator light.

How bright does it need to be? If you need to full 250-ish lumens of a 25W incandescent, you're basically out of luck; if sub-100 lumens is acceptable, you're in better shape.

2. I see there are different styles, "through hole" "SMD" and "High power" LED chips. "High power" seems to be the best replacement alternative for incandescent bulbs as they are the brightest. Is there anything to look out for with these bulbs?
Avoid through-hole "showerhead" style bulbs at all costs. They are - almost without exception - dim, poorly made, and worse in just about every way than the incandescents they claim to replace. About five years ago you could buy through-hole showerheads that were of decent quality for a fantastic price for applications where compliance (and thus long life) was important, such as emergency exit signs, but that market has dried up as cheaper purpose-built LED-backlit signs flooded the market.

5. Are there any specific questions regarding design that i should ask these companies?
A fwe questions come to mind...
Lumen Output
Color Temperature - lower temperatures (CCT - expressed in degrees Kelvin) are generally preferable to higher CCT (higher Color Rendition Index or CRI), but are also less efficient than higher CCT's
Operating lifespan to 85% of rated output ... 70% of rated output ... 50% of rated output
Recommended fixture types (open, semi-open, will miraculously work in enclosed fixtures)
Min/max operating temperature ranges
Sensitivity to whatever duty cycle your application requires
Interference generated by their driver circuits
Any other environmental sensitivities (humidity, thermal gradients, vibration, magnetic fields, water exposure)
Warranty terms and conditions
Letters of recommendation / past clients
I apologize that this letter is so long; I did not have time to write a short letter

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02-22-2011 06:53 PM #4 osaga

Thank you so much for this information, its very helpful.

I am in the US, pacific northwest. Here is the problem i am having... 1920's building with indoor common areas lit by flush mount ceiling chandeliers, a lot of them. Each fixture has 3 candelabra bulbs in it, currently with 25W incandescent, on 24/7.

The the maintenance of replacing bulbs is the driving force behind replacing them with LED. unfortunately cfl's are not acceptable because they're frosted and don't refract the crystals in the chandelier. So ideally we need an LED bulb, clear, warm white, and output 200+ lumens.

Based on the information you both showered down upon me, it sounds like a "high power" LED chip, made by Cree or other name brand, that is well heat sinked might work? I also will need good data from the manufacturer on the operating lifespan with a 100% duty cycle.

Based on the application, is this even possible?

Thanks again

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02-22-2011 09:14 PM #5 slebans

osaga said:
Thank you so much for this information, its very helpful.

I am in the US, pacific northwest. Here is the problem i am having... 1920's building with indoor common areas lit by flush mount ceiling chandeliers, a lot of them. Each fixture has 3 candelabra bulbs in it, currently with 25W incandescent, on 24/7.

The the maintenance of replacing bulbs is the driving force behind replacing them with LED. unfortunately cfl's are not acceptable because they're frosted and don't refract the crystals in the chandelier. So ideally we need an LED bulb, clear, warm white, and output 200+ lumens.

Based on the information you both showered down upon me, it sounds like a "high power" LED chip, made by Cree or other name brand, that is well heat sinked might work? I also will need good data from the manufacturer on the operating lifespan with a 100% duty cycle.

Based on the application, is this even possible?

Thanks again
I have been using the Philips 3 watt B10 Chandelier LED bulbs as detailed in this thread:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...ilips-decoled-3-watt-dimmable-chandelier-bulb

They only produce 130 lumens but - to my eyes - are only slightly less bright then the 25 watt Halogen bulbs they replaced. In fact, I left one of the original 18 halogen bulbs in the dual bulb wall sconces for comparison purposes and now I do not notice the difference unless I remember to specifically look at the Halogen bulb.

Stephen Lebans

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02-22-2011 11:14 PM #6 osaga

Thanks for the information on the philips bulb, surprisingly i hadn't seen that one before. I would guess that the 130 lumen rating would be pretty accurate considering its coming from a mainstream company. Below are links to the chinese bulbs I'm considering. All rated at 200+ lumens. All are $8-$15. I don't see any UL certificates on them...

Any thoughts on these? I'm thinking they're more likely to have longevity issues, but perhaps i'm being to cynical?

The philips bulb uses one "high power" 3W chip, with some sort of fiber optic tube to disperse the light, is that correct?

Viscom:
http://www.viscomlighting.com/ProductShow.asp?ID=347 (Bridgelux (USA) chips, 3W, 220lm, 3yr warranty)
http://www.viscomlighting.com/ProductShow.asp?ID=348 (Cree chips, 3W, 180lm)

VAR Partners: (The website doesn't show much, but i did receive a .pdf file via email with more detailed specs. Cree chips, 3W, 3000k, 30,000 hours, 180lm)

Poodar: (this company only has an alibaba website, no main site, information is limited, but i did receive an email from them, with a .pdf file with specs for their e12 bulb. One 3W Sharp chip, no indication of lm output. But they look like the philips bulb.)
http://poodar.en.alibaba.com/product/341547720-209945715/e27_led_bulb_lamp.html

Philips: (3W, 110lm)
http://www.lighting.philips.com/us_...g&parent=7593748565&id=us_en_products&lang=en


Here is a link to the alibaba search site, there are a plethora of Chinese companies with LED products:

http://www.alibaba.com/trade/search...sk=y&fsb=y&Type=BUY&SearchText=LED+candelabra

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02-23-2011 09:09 AM #7 LEDninja

A word on lumens.
Many small or poor companies do not have the ability to measure lumens. So they calculate it based on the theoretical output of the driver.
I bought a 2*3W PAR 20 Gen 4 warm white a year ago. Claimed lumens 360L. MET listing pending (I suspect failed)
http://www.lumiabulbs.com/catalog/item/7794901/8330362.htm
A year later the Gen 5 bulbs came out with full UL listing. UL requires the companies to have an independent lab test for lighting facts (lumens, actual power used, CCT, CRI etc). Then UL tests for safety issues.
The Gen 5 PAR 20 is now 3*3W. The lumens is 285.
http://www.lumiabulbs.com/f/2)_Par20_TPL.pdf
So 2*3W = 6W calculated 360L > 60 L/W
3*3W = 9W measured 285L > 31 L/W
Based on this actual example if the bulb does not have UL listing, half the lumens number claimed.

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osaga said:
Thanks for the information on the philips bulb, surprisingly i hadn't seen that one before. I would guess that the 130 lumen rating would be pretty accurate considering its coming from a mainstream company.
The philips bulb uses one "high power" 3W chip, with some sort of fiber optic tube to disperse the light, is that correct?
Philips: (3W, 110lm)
http://www.lighting.philips.com/us_e...oducts&lang=en
The Philips bulb came out only a month ago. Be careful you do not get last years model by mistake. The A-19 style I got this year is 450 lumens. The one from last year is 155 lumens.

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osaga said:
Viscom:
3*1W Bridgelux (USA) chips, 3W, 220lm, 3yr warranty
1*3W Cree chips, 3W, 180lm
Bridgelux is slightly less efficient than the latest Cree but it is unlikely the Cree chips here are the latest either. Bridgelux is quite well regarded by the fixed lighting DIY people.
When you put 3W into a chip you only get 2X the light output. So a 1*3W is only 2X 1*1W; a 3*1W is 3X 1*1W.
The 3*1W gives 1.5X the light of a 1*3W but costs more.

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osaga VAR Partners: Cree chips said:
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/34...ight_Bulb.html[/url]
Minimum Order Quantity: 50 Piece/Pieces
You'll have to talk them to send you ONE sample.

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osaga said:
Poodar: One 3W Sharp chip, no indication of lm output.
Sharp makes light engines - maybe many chips in a single case. The ECOsmart A-19 uses 2*4W Sharp light engines, outputs 429 real lumens. So a 3W Sharp light engine would give you 160 real lumens.

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osaga said:
Here is a link to the alibaba search site, there are a plethora of Chinese companies with LED products:
It is probably not worth the trouble trying to hunt bulbs by unreliable specs. TRY TO GET ONE SAMPLE OF EACH TO COMPARE.

Here is a US retailer that sells good LED bulbs. Maybe he will give you a volume discount especially if he knows you can get the Philips bulb for ~$16.
Note his DesignoLux range (unlike his Zetalux and Evolux) does not have UL so take the lumen numbers with a grain of salt. The bulbs look frosted which may be more pleasing in chandeliers. Ditto select warm white if you can.
Note also the BIG size of the bulbs.
http://store.earthled.com/collections/earthled-designolux/products/new-earthled-designolux-l


One of your links is to a E27 bulb (medium screw base). E12 is available but MAAKE SURE YOU GET THE PROPER BASE!!!
Last edited by LEDninja; 02-23-2011 at 09:13 AM.

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02-24-2011 05:55 PM #8 Ken_McE

osaga said:
... flush mount ceiling chandeliers, a lot of them. Each fixture has 3 candelabra bulbs in it, currently with 25W incandescent, on 24/7.

The the maintenance of replacing bulbs is the driving force behind replacing them with LED... cfl's are not acceptable because they're frosted and don't refract the crystals in the chandelier.
A consideration:

The incan. bulbs produce a continuous spectrum, when they go through the glass they produce a good range of colors because all the colors are present in the original light, the prisms just bring it out where you can enjoy it.

The spectrum of an LED is not identical to the spectrum of an incan. This means that the light that comes out of the prisms will not be identical to what you're used to. I don't know if it will be better or worse, but it should be different.

Make good and sure you test your new bulbs to see if you like them before you buy a whole buildings worth.
 
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skyled

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Joined
Apr 12, 2011
Messages
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i got a 3.8 watt candelabra LED bulb the other day from my local store. haven't heard of the brand but it was brighter and cheaper than the satco kolourone that the store had. i asked the fellow in the store to demo both and the tuwago (thats the brand) one was much brighter and dimmed decently:twothumbs. going back to get some more to fill the chandelier. anyone heard of these or tried them extensively?

added the picture below

moyfD.jpg
 
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