Self-checkout and receipt checks

[bykfixer]

No, not at all. Just recounting history for those who might not have been there or be aware of it.

I am, however not fond of problem solutions which put the cart before the horse, and are perhaps hurriedly implemented before their time at some other expense (creating other problems which as yet lack good solutions). Good solutions are often poorly implemented. History is rife with them, but that would lead to a sustained thread tangent. I don't (want to) do that.

In about 1975 America had adopted a standard emissions output that was greatly reduced from previous allowable outputs from automobiles. Soichiro (pronounced so-ee-chee-row) Honda had devised an exhaust gas recycling process he designed to achieve more performance for his racing engines. It coincidently met the output standards now adopted by America. America had taken well to his motorcycles so he started sending his car with that recycled exhaust gas idea called CVCC. We now call it Civic.

At one point it seemed this little car that could had begun to capture the attention of the big 3 auto makers. The CEO of GM at the time boasted how it was easy to build a toy engine (referring to the CVCC) to make less exhaust gases but to build a real engine like that was impossible. Mr Honda bought a Caprice with a big block engine and had it shipped to Japan. He retooled the engine with a CVCC system and sent it back to America where it was deemed not only approved for exhaust gas output but got better MPG and.... 9 more horsepower.

Each of the big three quietly asked Mr Honda to build engines for their cars. Each insisted they be for rear wheel drive cars. That would require the engine rotatate in the opposite direction. Mr Honda insisted on front wheel drive so there never was a deal made. Instead we got catalytic convertors. Now was that because one man refused to budge or because 3 giant companies with unlimited resources were either too lazy or too arogant to devise their own version?

That story is written in the book "in his wake, the story of Soichiro Honda".

Back to topic, here in my area self check outs work very well. At the grocery chain called Food Lion many use an MVP card also. The register at the self checkout says "your MVP card has been accepted" in a friendly voice. One day I picked up an MVP card in the parking lot and have used it ever since. They're not tracking my purchases but are some other person who dropped theirs.

 

[Poppy]

I avoid self-checkout as much as possible--I refuse to do a store employee's job for nothing. I try to go to a clerk checkout, because there is no financial incentive not to, and I want to keep PEOPLE employed,

When self check out started, I avoided them as much as possible, but now they are so ubiquitous that while l look for a manned lane, they often are filled with people who have FULL shopping carts. I've succumbed to the lore of quicker check-outs.

I was in costco yesterday, and they had two lines with three self check-outs each. That's 6 "registers" in two lines. The length of each line was no longer than the length of the manned lines, so it was a no brainer, which would get me out faster.

 

[bykfixer]

I used to think "self checkout causes job loss" but then I saw how badly retail stores have cut back labor costs so the jobs were already gone.

 

[orbital]

+

With the whole pre pay gas..
The station I was talking about is a modern one similar to a KwikTrip etc
Just at the menu, you could choose >Pay Inside
and the attendant likely makes sure cameras are rollin' & authorizes the pump.

I get it that 95% of people swipe their card at the pump,, I'v payed cash for a long time.

 

[aznsx]

In about 1975 America had adopted a standard emissions output that was greatly reduced from previous allowable outputs from automobiles. Soichiro (pronounced so-ee-chee-row) Honda had devised an exhaust gas recycling process he designed to achieve more performance for his racing engines. It coincidently met the output standards now adopted by America. America had taken well to his motorcycles so he started sending his car with that recycled exhaust gas idea called CVCC. We now call it Civic.

At one point it seemed this little car that could had begun to capture the attention of the big 3 auto makers. The CEO of GM at the time boasted how it was easy to build a toy engine (referring to the CVCC) to make less exhaust gases but to build a real engine like that was impossible. Mr Honda bought a Caprice with a big block engine and had it shipped to Japan. He retooled the engine with a CVCC system and sent it back to America where it was deemed not only approved for exhaust gas output but got better MPG and.... 9 more horsepower.

Each of the big three quietly asked Mr Honda to build engines for their cars. Each insisted they be for rear wheel drive cars. That would require the engine rotatate in the opposite direction. Mr Honda insisted on front wheel drive so there never was a deal made. Instead we got catalytic convertors. Now was that because one man refused to budge or because 3 giant companies with unlimited resources were either too lazy or too arogant to devise their own version?

That story is written in the book "in his wake, the story of Soichiro Honda".

Back to topic, here in my area self check outs work very well. At the grocery chain called Food Lion many use an MVP card also. The register at the self checkout says "your MVP card has been accepted" in a friendly voice. One day I picked up an MVP card in the parking lot and have used it ever since. They're not tracking my purchases but are some other person who dropped theirs.

Just taking a moment to thank you for more fully explaining the primary point of my post and the history behind it, which was likely completely missed by some with my post. I think you perhaps helped articulate it better / more completely than I did!

It's likely not lost on some who can read behind the lines of history that the stance taken by the 'big 3' re: CVCC worked to their advantage in several ways; not least being the more rapid replacement of the existing legacy car fleet / population with their own designs. It wasn't NIH and arrogance alone - there were other motivations as well.

CVCC was a perfect example of real innovation and problem solving, which elegantly solved the problem which was presented (meeting agressive emissions standards); but instead of creating new problems in the process, also brought with it other improvements. Such real innovation as that, was (as most know) severely lacking in Motown then, and for many years to come; and those were sad days in Detroit (which unfortunately persisted), and for most of us who were around as well. Detroit is still trying to recover from their past, and having worked in U.S. industry my whole career, I personally find all that very sad and regrettable indeed.

Although I don't ever like to continue a thread tangent, I wanted to thank you publicly, so please excuse. It was worth making an exception this time.

 

[aznsx]

The Home Depot in my area does self checkouts with a supervisor standing there. It's pretty silly...

However in my experience (at such self-checkouts in general), that person also helps provide good and speedy assistance when any issues are encountered, which has been the case numerous times with me, and I appreciated it. They replace numerous employees with one, and it enhances the process to boot. Just different experience / perspective there.

 

[bykfixer]

I could go on and on about the big 3 AZ but that's for another thread. I think it would be fair to label the Japanese government as socialist in the 70's. They had their big 3 also and Mr Honda was not on their list either, but everybody there also wanted to borrow his ideas.

Segway that back into the topic of this thread, we went to 3 stores today. One did not even have a cashier at all. There was one employee stocking shelves in the place. Nobody else. Oh, and you either had to buy a cloth bag or no bag at all. Nobody checked your receipt on the way out because there was nobody to do it. America has a big 3 retail stores now also. Target, WalMart and post- covid, Dollar General. While your barber was shut down you could freely roam the big 3 retail stores and use the self check out system.

 

[aznsx]

My phone does not run 'apps', and is just a 'phone'. That said, it appears that increasingly people aren't even using cards anymore. It seems things are moving to payment using people's (so-called) phones, using NFC (near-field communications) of some sort (I guess). If so, not only will cash disappear, but card use will decrease as well.

 

[IMA SOL MAN]

My father retired from Montgomery Ward, and I mourn the passing of the traditional department store. Here in my little town we had MW, a Sears catalog store, a J.C. Penney, a Western Auto, and I think at one time long ago a Gambles. For many years we had a Duckwall (later replaced with ALCO, home office in Abilene, KS) Woolworth, Gibson's Discount Center, which was like a KMart. The Sears catalog store was replaced with a hard lines store, later (appliances, tools and outdoor power) now it is gone. We also had a Ben Franklin (what used to be called a dime store, now inflated to be a dollar store), but it left years ago. Now we have Dollar Generals all over town, a Dollar Tree and a Family Dollar.

I really miss the old department stores.

 

[aznsx]

My father retired from Montgomery Ward, and I mourn the passing of the traditional department store. Here in my little town we had MW, a Sears catalog store, a J.C. Penney, a Western Auto, and I think at one time long ago a Gambles. For many years we had a Duckwall (later replaced with ALCO, home office in Abilene, KS) Woolworth, Gibson's Discount Center, which was like a KMart. The Sears catalog store was replaced with a hard lines store, later (appliances, tools and outdoor power) now it is gone. We also had a Ben Franklin (what used to be called a dime store, now inflated to be a dollar store), but it left years ago. Now we have Dollar Generals all over town, a Dollar Tree and a Family Dollar.

I really miss the old department stores.

Sounds a lot like the small town I did some growing-up years in (~6) in AR. It was pop 8 or 10-12000 (and a county seat), plus a college. Then later, WM came to town, and it has since changed everything that was forever:-( I still visit there sometimes, and it ain't like it used to was! I can almost hear "I went back to Ohio....." playing in the background. The industry that was there is also now largely gone.

 

[idleprocess]

My phone does not run 'apps', and is just a 'phone'.

The feature phone is a dying breed; glancing at major carrier inventory they appear to be perhaps one model apiece with many actually being Android phones with physical keypads.

That said, it appears that increasingly people aren't even using cards anymore. It seems things are moving to payment using people's (so-called) phones, using NFC (near-field communications) of some sort (I guess).

I took note when cashiers - typically both young and operating via rote - stopped being able to make change methodically. More recently they're increasingly perplexed by chip cards as NFC has started to dominate in the card space.

NFC on the phone (or smartwatch) has been gaining a foothold for some time. I've never played with it but I gather it's basically a proxy for your credit card.

If so, not only will cash disappear, but card use will decrease as well.

There's a solid and growing foothold for device-based NFC. But I suspect that routinely handing over a valuable multifunction device (ala your phone or smartwatch) in situations where there's no PIN terminal directly in front of the customer will keep cards (or something like them) around for some time.

Cash will continue in certain industries for some time. What it lacks in settlement time and its need for physical security it makes up for in lack of per-transaction fees and popularity in many market segments and the unbanked who routinely get rolled by 'alt finance' scheme fees. It's also mighty convenient for its ... vagaries ... in some businesses operating in grey areas of the law (either in jurisdictions with crippling tax rates or the likes of dispensaries where huge chunks of the banking system is disinterested in angering the feds). A number of businesses also offer cash discounts as well, such is their distaste for - or inability to negotiate down - card fees.

I've had no significant issues paying cash for retail purchases yet although there are some exceptions:

• Venue concessions : Either loathe to accept cash or refuse to. The latter probably part of the contract with the venue who provides the POS and payment processing which helpfully siphons a slice to the venue upfront.
• Food trucks : Some discourage or refuse to accept cash - presumably to cut down on time spent making change and to eliminate the time overhead involved with cash-handling
• Airlines : Have not accepted cash for in-cabin food/beverage purchases for decades - likely for the same reason as food trucks

 

[Monocrom]

I used to think "self checkout causes job loss" but then I saw how badly retail stores have cut back labor costs so the jobs were already gone.

If a higher percentage of customers used the self-checkout, they'd be able to fire a couple of more employees per store. Maybe even more than a couple.

 

[M@elstrom]

My phone does not run 'apps', and is just a 'phone'.

As my Android phone ages, it is increasingly becoming "just a phone" at a rather rapid pace 🤣

 

[bykfixer]

My phone does not run 'apps', and is just a 'phone'. That said, it appears that increasingly people aren't even using cards anymore. It seems things are moving to payment using people's (so-called) phones, using NFC (near-field communications) of some sort (I guess). If so, not only will cash disappear, but card use will decrease as well.

I keep NFC turned off. Way too many e-klepto's out there these days.

For a long time my work phone was simply a portable phone. You could text using the 123/456/789/0 keys like the old days and take really fuzzy photos with it. But it was a water proof Casio that was a very good phone for using on a construction site. Very durable. Then one day "they" (the mother ship) decided we need to better stay in touch. In other words they sit behind a desk and send out emails all day and expect answers... shortly afterward. Ugh!

I've ruined countless iPhones they supply via sweat killing the ear speaker, run over by a car, dropped into concrete, dust in the charger port etc etc. They keep replacing them with a newer version. One day I placed a LifeProof cover over mine (vs the cheap cases they supply) and am now on year 3 with the iPhone 11 they sent.

The catch is it is set up for their mother ship proprietary system so things I turn off on my personal phone to aid in some privacy cannot be turned off on the company phone. They have all these apps that use those features I turn off. So I have a foil sleeve to place it in at times in case I get near an e-klepto.

I use a card mostly at self checkouts but hold it like a card shark holding that 3rd queen hidden from view and stick it back in an e-klepto-proof wallet. I feel about 99% safe like that but some of those guys are good. One day I got hacked in a line at WalMart. While buying a window AC a fellow said "hey I have one of those at home I'll sell you cheap" as his partner stood near the buldge from my left rear pocket. I noticed the OP but did not make the mental connection that I was being hacked. Next day the credit card company asked if it was me who'd just spent $300+ at the same WalMart while I was at home watching tv. They had stolen the credit card without touching it.

Bottom line, while in line be it self checkout or a line with a person, be weary of someone inside your 3 foot circle.

 

[IMA SOL MAN]

I keep NFC turned off. Way too many e-klepto's out there these days.

For a long time my work phone was simply a portable phone. You could text using the 123/456/789/0 keys like the old days and take really fuzzy photos with it. But it was a water proof Casio that was a very good phone for using on a construction site. Very durable. Then one day "they" (the mother ship) decided we need to better stay in touch. In other words they sit behind a desk and send out emails all day and expect answers... shortly afterward. Ugh!

I've ruined countless iPhones they supply via sweat killing the ear speaker, run over by a car, dropped into concrete, dust in the charger port etc etc. They keep replacing them with a newer version. One day I placed a LifeProof cover over mine (vs the cheap cases they supply) and am now on year 3 with the iPhone 11 they sent.

The catch is it is set up for their mother ship proprietary system so things I turn off on my personal phone to aid in some privacy cannot be turned off on the company phone. They have all these apps that use those features I turn off. So I have a foil sleeve to place it in at times in case I get near an e-klepto.

I use a card mostly at self checkouts but hold it like a card shark holding that 3rd queen hidden from view and stick it back in an e-klepto-proof wallet. I feel about 99% safe like that but some of those guys are good. One day I got hacked in a line at WalMart. While buying a window AC a fellow said "hey I have one of those at home I'll sell you cheap" as his partner stood near the buldge from my left rear pocket. I noticed the OP but did not make the mental connection that I was being hacked. Next day the credit card company asked if it was me who'd just spent $300+ at the same WalMart while I was at home watching tv. They had stolen the credit card without touching it.

Bottom line, while in line be it self checkout or a line with a person, be weary of someone inside your 3 foot circle.

Assuming you can put the company phone in Airplane Mode, does that also shut off the comms from all the apps, or just the telephone company pings?

 

[bykfixer]

I do not know the answer to that Sol Man

 

[Dave_H]

For a number of reasons I refuse to use self-checkout, until/unless I am forced to use it. No stores here have been dumb enough not to have at least one live cashier on duty, although a single line sometimes has a lineup (and I somehow get in just behind someone with 50 or more items...).

One-way entrance gates are becoming common, as are security guards at grocery stores. This accelerated during COVID with guards required to enforce number of people in the store which at one point here (Ontario) was as little as 15% of the normal legal maximum for safety; and some retail operations were closed off. Some other restrictions were bizarre, such as limiting what could be bought (to "essentials"). In Dollar Tree on one side of the aisle you could buy cutlery, but on the other side you could not buy plates or glasses. I'll leave it at that, not to diverge from the main topic.

Chalk up extra security in part to inflation and other hardships, and increases in shoplifting, a difficult situation.


Dave

 

[idleprocess]

Bottom line, while in line be it self checkout or a line with a person, be weary of someone inside your 3 foot circle.

Clever hardware (namely more powerful transceivers, better antennas) can get reads on NFC cards from quite some ways away.

Assuming you can put the company phone in Airplane Mode, does that also shut off the comms from all the apps, or just the telephone company pings?

Airplane mode shuts off the radios transmitters in the phone. But does nothing about apps holding payloads until comms are available again.

 

[orbital]

+

Try rolling up to a locally grown farmers market, fresh produce, that morning eggs, breads, actual homemade items,,
you just place your phone on the table thinking that's payment.
Some may take electronic payment, the rest will just give you a smile.

People need to put their phones away.

______________________

Small rant,
the last time I was at the Dollar Store getting some strike-on-box matches, there were four people in front of me.
I had 3 boxes and a $5 in my hand which would only take a few seconds.
All four people in front of me at the dollar store paid with plastic,, seemed like everyone needed coaching on the machine and I wondered how many extra minutes this took me standing there.
If you can't pull together $20 to go to the dollar store, you have other things you need to sort out

 

[thermal guy]

I can't remember the last time I actually used cash. Having a bank card linked to your bank account is just way easier. For me anyways.