Vision X Patriot LED Light

[-Virgil-]

DOT has stringent requirements and limitations for aftermarket lighting

Actually, auxiliary lamps -- fog lamps, "driving" (auxiliary high beam) lamps, and "passing" (auxiliary low beam) lamps -- are not Federally regulated.

and it costs quite a bit to get their approval.

Actually, there is no such thing as "DOT approval". American auto safety rules don't work on an approval basis, they work on an autocertification basis (the maker self-certifies that his equipment meets all applicable provisions of any applicable regulations). There is no government approval involved. Other parts of the world (Japan, Europe...) work on a type-approval system where prior government approval is required, but that's not how it's done here. Why are you waving your hands about "expensive DOT approval" that doesn't really exist, for a category of product not covered by DOT car regulations? What's the real reason?

it will be a while before you see LEDs in primary lighting scenarios. You see Audi and Rolls Royce using them as day time running lights, but nobody is using them for headlights yet. The Escalade PE does not use them for primary lighting. They still use a combination of multi-surface reflectors and projectors for their main lights.

Wrong. Audi, Cadillac, Lexus, and Toyota have production vehicles on the road right now with LED headlamps, and have had for over two years. The Cadillac Escalade Platinum front light assembly uses only LED light sources for all functions including low and high beam, DRL, parking lamp, sidemarker, and turn signal. See here, here, here, here, amongst many others. And many, many more such headlamps are just around the corner.

Again: Why are you making such obvious misstatements?

 

[RelativeEng]

Actually, auxiliary lamps -- fog lamps, "driving" (auxiliary high beam) lamps, and "passing" (auxiliary low beam) lamps -- are not Federally regulated.



Actually, there is no such thing as "DOT approval". American auto safety rules don't work on an approval basis, they work on an autocertification basis (the maker self-certifies that his equipment meets all applicable provisions of any applicable regulations). There is no government approval involved. Other parts of the world (Japan, Europe...) work on a type-approval system where prior government approval is required, but that's not how it's done here. Why are you waving your hands about "expensive DOT approval" that doesn't really exist, for a category of product not covered by DOT car regulations? What's the real reason?



Wrong. Audi, Cadillac, Lexus, and Toyota have production vehicles on the road right now with LED headlamps, and have had for over two years. The Cadillac Escalade Platinum front light assembly uses only LED light sources for all functions including low and high beam, DRL, parking lamp, sidemarker, and turn signal. See here, here, here, here, amongst many others. And many, many more such headlamps are just around the corner.

Again: Why are you making such obvious misstatements?

First off, who said anything about federal requirements for headlamps? Different states have different rules concerning lighting on vehicles that can supersede any federal mandate. For instance, California does not allow non-DOT lights to be mounted in a forward direction, if they are on a vehicle, they must be covered or facing away. They even require that police vehicles stow their spot light when not in use. In Arizona, you can have as many lights as you want on your vehicle.

Again, it is not cheap to make a light that complies with DOT requirements. It is even harder to make a light that is "universal" and can do this. Since you seem to be so smart, please educate me on how you can use the reflective and refractive properties of any thermoplastic to create an optic that can be effectively injection molded and mass produced. On top of that, how much do you think it costs to engineer and tool for 1 optic? More than you make in a year I promise you.

I didn't know that Caddy had that light, according to their website they are using encapsulated bulbs as always. I am glad they are using LEDs, but their light is designed for 1 vehicle. It has multiple projectors to achieve the necessary pattern needed for safe driving. Give Hella a call and ask them if they recommend using the Escalade light on your beat up Honda and let me know what they say.

If you are going to make accusations about the abilities of known sciences, I recommend that you pick up a book on properties of light and do a little research.

 

[reptiles]

The military uses LED headlights but mostly for their resistance to shock waves from explosions.

 

[-Virgil-]

First off, who said anything about federal requirements for headlamps?

Nobody. You claimed there are DOT regulations for aftermarket (i.e., auxiliary) lights, and the fact is there aren't.

Different states have different rules concerning lighting on vehicles that can supersede any federal mandate.

You've got that backwards. Federal regulations supersede state regulations; states aren't permitted to have regulations that differ from the federal reg for any given item or system of vehicle equipment. If (and only if) there is no federal regulation on an item or system (such as auxiliary lamps) then states may regulate the installation and usage of the device or system to the degree (and only to the degree) any such regulation does not bar the sale or use of a vehicle fully compliant with all applicable Federal standards.

California does not allow non-DOT lights to be mounted in a forward direction

You're misreading and/or misunderstanding the California vehicle code. There's no such thing as a "DOT fog lamp", for example, because there are no federal fog lamp regulations. Nevertheless, many vehicles come with fog lamps -- none of which are marked "DOT", and all of which are permitted in California, because California's not permitted to ban vehicles compliant with all applicable federal vehicle safety standards.

Again, it is not cheap to make a light that complies with DOT requirements. It is even harder to make a light that is "universal" and can do this.

Nope. It's very easy to make a fog lamp or an auxiliary high beam ("driving") lamp that conforms to the relevant SAE and/or ECE technical standards, and then the only variability among states is how many are permitted per vehicle, how high and low they can be mounted, how they can be hooked up with respect to other lights on the vehicle, and when they may and may not be used. You are still pleading regulatory difficulty that does not really exist. Is it because you don't understand the regulations, because you don't want to share the real reason, or both?

please educate me on how you can use the reflective and refractive properties of any thermoplastic to create an optic that can be effectively injection molded and mass produced.

Uh...sure, as soon as you pay me engineering-school tuition, I'll be glad to teach you a private class. Or you could save big bucks and do some research on your own. There's a great deal of material published on that very topic and many related ones. It's not very hard to find, either, though some of it isn't free.

how much do you think it costs to engineer and tool for 1 optic?

Between several hundred thousand and a million dollars, in rough numbers, depending on the complexity of the optic. Having developed several commercialized headlamps, I don't need to guess or surmise.

I didn't know that Caddy had that light

...but you had no qualm about asserting that they don't.

I am glad they are using LEDs, but their light is designed for 1 vehicle. It has multiple projectors to achieve the necessary pattern needed for safe driving.

Yeah...and what's your point here? It's an all-LED headlamp. You claimed nobody is using LEDs for headlamps. You're wrong several times over.

Give Hella a call and ask them if they recommend using the Escalade light on your beat up Honda and let me know what they say.

Here's a more relevant question: How many different makes and models d'you suppose Truck-Lite's all-LED 7" round high/low beam street-legal headlamp fits? (hey, look...it's another one of those "nonexistent" LED headlamps you were talking about!)

If you are going to make accusations about the abilities of known sciences, I recommend that you pick up a book on properties of light and do a little research.

...says the guy caught out in an attempt to spread complete misinformation. Yeah, I'll get right on that. Vision X used up most of my credulity very early on with extravagant claims backed up by nothing but handwaving, and your posts in this thread seem to be more of the same.

 

[LEDobsession]

Again, it is not cheap to make a light that complies with DOT requirements. It is even harder to make a light that is "universal" and can do this.

Nope. It's very easy to make a fog lamp or an auxiliary high beam ("driving") lamp that conforms to the relevant SAE and/or ECE technical standards, and then the only variability among states is how many are permitted per vehicle, how high and low they can be mounted, how they can be hooked up with respect to other lights on the vehicle, and when they may and may not be used.

Remember what the point of this argument was? To make a DOT/ECE/FDA/STATE/GOVT/WHOEVER approved LED fog/auxiliary/driving light. Not just some Halogen or HID. I'm sure it requires a little more complexity. Scheinwerfermann, I don't mean this in a rude way, but just out of curiousity, have you built an LED lamp that you would consider "safe and DOT approved" to put on the front of your vehicle?

Remember this is a public forum, and not for assumptions, but no one is perfect and we sometimes make them. This industry has a lot of information that not one person knows all about. Lets use what we do know to educate and inform others and keep this a friendly place.:thumbsup:
lovecpf

 

[RelativeEng]

Remember what the point of this argument was? To make a DOT/ECE/FDA/STATE/GOVT/WHOEVER approved LED fog/auxiliary/driving light. Not just some Halogen or HID. I'm sure it requires a little more complexity. Scheinwerfermann, I don't mean this in a rude way, but just out of curiousity, have you built an LED lamp that you would consider "safe and DOT approved" to put on the front of your vehicle?

Remember this is a public forum, and not for assumptions, but no one is perfect and we sometimes make them. This industry has a lot of information that not one person knows all about. Lets use what we do know to educate and inform others and keep this a friendly place.:thumbsup:
lovecpf

Right on. I am not saying that you cannot have an LED light on the front of a vehicle on the road. The use of that light on the road is more of a liability not only for the manufacturer, but for the person who installed and operated with it. If you just want a light that projects light, there are many options out there. If you want an LED light that can be SAFELY operated on the road, there is a lot more to keep in mind. The original question posted asked about making a driving light for on-road use and for that there are concerns that cannot be taken lightly. I would not suggest using any light that is not DOT or SAE compliant on any road where poor ambient lighting and oncoming traffic are possible. Any company that says otherwise is probably one that you do not want to buy a product from.

As for the Caddy mistake, I was not aware of that option. After researching their website concerning the LED headlight, the pictures shown only represented a partial LED light. LEDObsession, I apologize for correcting you as I was incorrect. And Scheinwerfermann, thank you for bringing this to my attention. The truth is it is very costly to come up with any new product, not only in the design and engineering, but also in the tooling and manufacturing. So yes, making a LED light SAE or DOT approved (or compliant) is very expensive. Most performance lights on the market utilize off-the-shelf TIR optics to effectively control beam patterns and they do this to reduce costs on consumers. Instead, the cost of that engineering and tooling can be shared across all manufacturers and products by that practice. There is not a single person on this forum that does not investigate or compare costs of different lights. If any manufacturer created a new optic or reflector for every new product and application, the reality is it would be too expensive and the customer would go somewhere else.

 

[-Virgil-]

out of curiousity, have you built an LED lamp that you would consider "safe and DOT approved" to put on the front of your vehicle?

Nope. But such lamps have been made, and I have a pretty good, very detailed grasp of what it takes. It's nowhere near as impossible as Patriot-guy wants us to believe it is, for whatever reason. I appreciate your comments about knowledge and such; it's just that I smell deliberate misinformation in this thread and I am quite allergic to it. There's never a good reason for it.

 

[mboni]

Gee, big discussion on DOT-legal lights, but it's not really relevant. Especially since, as Scheinwerfermann points out, I'm thinking about unregulated aux lights (fog/driving), not headlights.

More specifically, I think there is a good market for motorcycle fork lights that help with both being seen and seeing the road, but don't tax the power supply of the motorcycle too much. 35W MR16 halogen bulbs are often used for this purpose, but the beam shape is a simple cone. Frankly, I think the Vision X emitters are a much better choice for this role.

Motorcyclists aren't looking for a perfect beam pattern according to DOT standards, just something that is a little better than a basic circle: most of the light down on the road, just a little bit of light higher up to increase visibility without blinding anyone. Frankly, a perfect beam shape is wasted on a motorcycle anyways, since they will end up leaning into a turn and throwing the whole system off, so you actually need a moderately big spill pattern much of the time.

 

[bshanahan14rulz]

I've always wondered if visionx uses off-the-shelf round TIR or if they have a custom-engineered TIR shape that they copy mold that puts out a different pattern with light distribution adjusted to account for differences in distance... Any wall-shots from owners?

 

[znomit]

I've always wondered if visionx uses off-the-shelf round TIR or if they have a custom-engineered TIR shape that they copy mold that puts out a different pattern with light distribution adjusted to account for differences in distance... Any wall-shots from owners?

Looks like off the shelf sekonix
http://www.sekonix.com/upload/p7-2.pdf

 

[LEDobsession]

Looks like off the shelf sekonix
http://www.sekonix.com/upload/p7-2.pdf

Correct. They just went to Sekonix P7 Series 2 . Before, they had some stuff with Sekonix Series 1.

 

[RelativeEng]

Nope. But such lamps have been made, and I have a pretty good, very detailed grasp of what it takes. It's nowhere near as impossible as Patriot-guy wants us to believe it is, for whatever reason. I appreciate your comments about knowledge and such; it's just that I smell deliberate misinformation in this thread and I am quite allergic to it. There's never a good reason for it.

Nobody is saying it's impossible, it's just expensive. It is a lot easier to control a beam pattern with a large reflector than it is with a small TIR optic. Not to say it can't be done, but it's expensive.

 

[bshanahan14rulz]

it's expensive either way. Both are a matter of going through a big process of design, engineering, simulations, testing, etc.

Sure would be nice to get my hands on some of those elliptical lenses, or some special pattern ones.

 

[BeachBoy]

if federal laws supersede all others, then why most aftermarket performance stuff is often all states legal except california?
I'd be tempted to say states can have laws as long as they are at least as strict as the federal ones

 

[-Virgil-]

if federal laws supersede all others, then why most aftermarket performance stuff is often all states legal except california?

That's emissions, not safety. California has a Federal exemption allowing them to set and enforce their own auto emission standards.

I'd be tempted to say states can have laws as long as they are at least as strict as the federal ones

That's not how it works, though.

 

[clint357]

Correct. They just went to Sekonix P7 Series 2 . Before, they had some stuff with Sekonix Series 1.

I was not impressed at all by the series 2......10 degree beam, yeah with 80% spill.

 

[APS-Australia]

I will have one of these on wednesday :-)

12 x 10 Watt LEDs will be interesting.

Ill take photos of it on a a white wall with a light gauge and do some comparisons against the solstice series and post some the info when im done.

 

[LEDobsession]

I will have one of these on wednesday :-)

12 x 10 Watt LEDs will be interesting.

Ill take photos of it on a a white wall with a light gauge and do some comparisons against the solstice series and post some the info when im done.

Yes, please do!
:popcorn:
Ill be waiting. :thumbsup:

 

[APS-Australia]

Yes, please do!
:popcorn:
Ill be waiting. :thumbsup:

Damn FedEx! Wont be till Friday now :-(

 

[LEDobsession]

I was not impressed at all by the series 2......10 degree beam, yeah with 80% spill.

The Series 2 is available in 3 beam patterns. Narrow-10*, Wide-35*, and Elliptical creating a X45* by Y15* beam. Maybe you should check out the Wide if you're looking for a little more spill.

Damn FedEx! Wont be till Friday now :-(

A Flashaholics Nightmare! :nana:

I was at work when my Xmitter came and I left without telling anyone to go get it from home. :devil: