What are my power AA options?

[bugeyed]

Just learning about these 14500 Li-Ion batteries. Just got a Maratac 9290-AA & was surprised that the quoted specs (190 lumen) are not accurate if using AA batteries! I am interested in trying the 14500 battery & need to know what the best choices are for sources for batteries & a charger. Also, what run times am I looking at for this light when using a 14500 battery?

Thanks,
kev

 

[Paul6ppca]

AW cells are the best choice,they are protected,charges are available from most any vendrs here at CPF.Run time will usally be a bt lower,but brightness will be much better!

 

[Buckley]

Before you purchase Li ion batteries and a charger, I STRONGLY recommend that you peruse the relevant articles on Li ion hazards and safety precautions in the batteries section of this forum.

Having said that, I use AW 14500 batteries in my Quark AA. I charge them in and Ultrafire WF-139 charger. Both are available from:
www.lighthound.com

Oh, and :welcome:

 

[Paul_in_Maryland]

Check out the nickel-zinc rechargeable AA cells from PowerGenix. They'll deliver 1.6 to 1.7V under a 1-amp load. I've switched from NiMH.

Capacity is only about 1500 or 1600 mAh, but your boost driver won't have to work as hard, so you'll gain some of it back. Also, they're dirt-cheap (about $3 each) and work great in cold weather. PowerGenix makes two chargers; be sure to get the faster charger, as it's smarter and can charge 1, 2, 3, or 4 cells at a time (not just 2 or 4).

NiZn cells will lose more charge than low-self-discharge NiMH cells (like Eneloop) but will hold a charge better than conventional NiMHs.

 

[Let It Bleed]

NiZn cells will lose more charge than low-self-discharge NiMH cells (like Eneloop) but will hold a charge better than conventional NiMHs.

Does this mean they self discharge faster, but in actual use last longer (i.e. longer runtime but shorter shelf life)? Or are you contrasting how the NiZn cells compare to Eneloop and non-Eneloop NiHM cells respectively?

Thanks for the information. I'm trying to figure out what all I should buy to make use of rechargables. So far, the only thing I can't decide on is which Li-ion charger to buy. :thinking: Now I have another decision to make - NiZn or NiMH?

How available are NiZn cells?

 

[bugeyed]

snip So far, the only thing I can't decide on is which Li-ion charger to buy. :thinking: Now I have another decision to make - NiZn or NiMH?

How available are NiZn cells?

Which charger did you decide on?

 

[red02]

As far as the Li-Ion charger goes, I'd recommend the UF-139. I've been using it for a few months with 17670 cells and so far it been worked great. It's not as expensive or pro-grade as the pila, but it gets the job done.

Amazon carried NiZn cells+charger last time I checked.

 

[utalker]

Have I missed something. When I'm looking at the Quark Mini AA for example, it sais MAX 1,5V. And the 14500s are 4,2V.

How can the 14500 work in the flashlight? :S

 

[amigafan2003]

How can the 14500 work in the flashlight? :S

The circuit supprt upto 4.2v BUT it's the heat that is generated when running li-ions on high that is the issue on the MiNis. A few mins is fine on high, any longer and you risk damaging the LED. This is why the manual says only upto 1.5v is supprted - means that the use of li-ions in this light is not warrantied.

Low and med are fine to be run continuously with li-ions though (I use li-ions exclusively in mmy MiNi AA as med gets a boost from around 25 lumens to 50 lumens

 

[DM51]

Belongs in the Batteries section. Moving it there...

 

[Let It Bleed]

Which charger did you decide on?

After numerous hours of reading, I'm leaning towards not getting any li-ions until I can learn how to use the stuff they sell at BatterySpace. But even then, they may not sell to me - I haven't looked into what their policy is.

I am going to buy some NiHM batteries and charger, probably from BatterySpace.

If I do go with Li-ion, I don't think there really is a choice. It's either a Pila or nothing. The problem is, I also want to use RCR123 and 10440 cells also. I know you can use spacers in the Pila for the 123 cells, but I'd prefer a charger made to accept them.

I have a couple of 18650 lights, but I need RCR123 cells for 3 Surefires with Drop-ins and a 10440 for use in a Liteflux LF2XT. If I got the Pila I would probably buy a Quark AA and use 14500 cells. The only way it's worth the investment for me is if I can use RCR123 cells in my Surefires. As for the AA Quark, I can get the same performance with a Quark 123.

Therefore, I may just buy a couple of 10440 cells, the cheapest charger available, and a new fire extinguisher! I have to put 10440 cells in the LF2XT just for the performance. And since the light has ODP, it's not a problem using unprotected cells.

I would like to use Li-ions, but I'm honestly sick of trying to find what I'm looking for b/c I don't think it's made. There just doesn't seem to be any UL listed, consumer friendly Li-ion products designed specifically for flashlight application. There seems to be relatively inexpensive high quality stuff for the dedicated hobbyist who knows what they're doing and several brands of "Starta" -Fire listed on flashlight dealer sites. It's prescient that they all use "Fire" in their names.

What I don't understand is why AW doesn't make chargers that are the equal of their own batteries. I also don't expect one charger to be able to charge every cell size known to man. But if someone could just tell me what chargers to get to charge AW 18650, AW 14500, AW 10440, and AW RCR123 cells, then I might do it. But then I think of how many primary CR123 cells I could buy with that same money, and I wonder if it's really worth it.

So to answer the question - I haven't decided! :hairpull:

 

[Paul_in_Maryland]

nickel-zinc vs. Eneloops

Does this mean they self discharge faster, but in actual use last longer (i.e. longer runtime but shorter shelf life)? Or are you contrasting how the NiZn cells compare to Eneloop and non-Eneloop NiHM cells respectively?

They self-discharge faster than Eneloops, AND they hold fewer amp-hours than Eneloops when fully charged. In other words, it's lose-lose in those two departments. Where they beat Eneloops and all NiMH cells is higher nominal voltage, higher voltage under load, and higher voltage and capacity in cold weather.

How available are NiZn cells?

Only one company makes them: PowerGenix. You won't find them in retail stores, but they're sold by several vendors on Amazon, eBay, and the Web at large.

 

[bluepilgrim]

I'm rather pleased so far with the NiZn (my Romisen N3-G2 throw a very nice light with them), but I still can't find AAA -- rumored late last year to be out in March/April, but not here yet. Anyone heard any further on these?

I used the N3-G2 the other night for about 10 or 15 minutes and decided to top off the charge; when I measured the voltage before charging I read 1.7 volts (digital VM) -- but it did charge for 15 minutes before the green light went on.

I'd love to see them in D size too -- or even a 1/2 123 size so I could use them instead of lithium primaries ('cause I'm frugal). This is a chemistry I could settle on.

 

[mfm]

Therefore, I may just buy a couple of 10440 cells, the cheapest charger available, and a new fire extinguisher! I have to put 10440 cells in the LF2XT just for the performance. And since the light has ODP, it's not a problem using unprotected cells.

Just get:

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.14885
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.36026

and monitor the charging (just like you should even if you got a Pila). You probably only need a (class D) fire extinguisher if you get a hobby charger.

 

[Let It Bleed]

I apologize for hijacking this thread, but I do appreciate all the advice provided. And most of this information does address the OP's question and I hope was helpful.

After more forum searching and thread reading last night, I have finally made a decision. Since it appears that I can, with certain precautions, charge 10440 cells on a Pila, I have decided to buy a Pila charger. After all I, as well as many others, will spend more than $50 on any number of flashlights, drop-ins, and _______(fill in the blank). Therefore why try and save $30 on a cheap charger that testing suggests will shorten the life of rechargeable cells and may even burn my house down. Conversely, I realize that the Pila is not perfect and absolutely risk free. However, I consider it worth the extra money simply to extend the life of my Li-ion cells. Adding in the extra measure of safety that the Pila provides makes my choice a non-decision.

While trying to learn from a forum format is definitely not the most time efficient method, I do want to thank those who take the time to provide both their objective results and subjective opinions. It really helps when conclusions are drawn from the test results provided. Of course opinions will often differ as to what certain results actually mean, but it is incredibly helpful to read what knowledgeable people think the results mean.

Often it seems that those who provide quality information are frequently excoriated for doing so. Rest assured that your efforts are appreciated. Although there will always be some who feel that they are entitled to the information voluntarily provided on this forum, please know that I appreciate not only your efforts but also your willingness to share experiences, knowledge, and reasoned opinions.

Now to figure out how many 10440, 14500, 16340, and 18650 cells I should buy.

 

[mfm]

I apologize for hijacking this thread, but I do appreciate all the advice provided. And most of this information does address the OP's question and I hope was helpful.

After more forum searching and thread reading last night, I have finally made a decision. Since it appears that I can, with certain precautions, charge 10440 cells on a Pila, I have decided to buy a Pila charger. After all I, as well as many others, will spend more than $50 on any number of flashlights, drop-ins, and _______(fill in the blank). Therefore why try and save $30 on a cheap charger that testing suggests will shorten the life of rechargeable cells and may even burn my house down. Conversely, I realize that the Pila is not perfect and absolutely risk free. However, I consider it worth the extra money simply to extend the life of my Li-ion cells. Adding in the extra measure of safety that the Pila provides makes my choice a non-decision.

It's with the Pila and 10440 you risk burning your house down, its charge current is too high.

At best, the Pila will severly shorten the life of your 10440 cells.

Touting the Pila as the one true solution for charging Li-ion of all sizes is just careless, wrong and a disservice to the flashlight community. Don't use it with cells that have less than 600 mA true capacity.

Also the UL listing and the manufacturer warranty isn't worth squat unless you charge "Pila 18650" cells ONLY.

 

[45/70]

Touting the Pila as the one true solution for charging Li-ion of all sizes is just careless, wrong and a disservice to the flashlight community. Don't use it with cells that have less than 600 mA true capacity.

mfm is correct in that the Pila IBC charges at too high a current for 10440 cells. Other than that though, it pretty much is "the one true solution for charging Li-ion" cells, 600mAh or over in capacity, when looking for a consumer type Li-ion cradle charger.

The charger mfm recommended is a decent charger. I have one and use it sometimes for 10440, 14250, 14500 and 15270 LiCo cells. It doesn't follow the algorithm the Li-Ion cell manufacturers recommend as well as the Pila, but it'll do. The one bad thing about it, is it trickle charges. It is at a very low rate (< 7mA), however you still have to watch leaving the cell on the charger after charge completion is indicated. Also, for cells larger than 14500, it's really slow.

The other charger I've used for 10440 cells, is the nano 10440 charger. I don't think these are still available though, and would have a hard time recommending one, as I had to buy three of them before I got one that worked for more than a few days. It also trickle charges, although I don't know at what current rate. This of course, is an undesirable characteristic, and removing the cell upon indication of charge completion is necessary.

Dave

 

[Let It Bleed]

I'm aware of the cautions that must be taken with 10440 cells, which is why I specifically stated such.

Touting the Pila as the one true solution for charging Li-ion of all sizes is just careless, wrong and a disservice to the flashlight community.

It never ceases to amaze me how people choose to read into a post that which isn't there. I cannot fathom how anyone could infer from my posts that I am proselytizing and trying to spread the good news that is the Pila charger.

I certainly don't mind people disagreeing with me, but the ridiculous hyperbole and hostile attitude is less than persuasive. Additionally, implying that my personal decisions could have some detrimental effect on the "flashlight community" is flattering but patently absurd.

While I did not specify what issues were involved with charging 10440 cells on this charger, I was absolutely candid about there being some. The issue you cited was the problem I did research. Insuring that I was in fact aware of this particular issue would have been appreciated if not for the unwarranted and thinly veiled attack.

Also the UL listing and the manufacturer warranty isn't worth squat unless you charge "Pila 18650" cells ONLY.

Absolute conviction of opinion does not rise to the level of fact.

 

[mfm]

I'm aware of the cautions that must be taken with 10440 cells, which is why I specifically stated such.


It never ceases to amaze me how people choose to read into a post that which isn't there. I cannot fathom how anyone could infer from my posts that I am proselytizing and trying to spread the good news that is the Pila charger.

I certainly don't mind people disagreeing with me, but the ridiculous hyperbole and hostile attitude is less than persuasive. Additionally, implying that my personal decisions could have some detrimental effect on the "flashlight community" is flattering but patently absurd.

While I did not specify what issues were involved with charging 10440 cells on this charger, I was absolutely candid about there being some. The issue you cited was the problem I did research.

There is not some "issue" with 10440, the IBC is totally unsuitable for them and using them together is a much greater security risk than using some cheap charger.

It was not you personally but the people in general, especially in the last weeks, who tout the Pila IBC as the second coming of Christ. Facts:

1) The Pila IBC is not suitable for 10440, RCR2 or (most) RCR123A.

2) Most of the cheap chargers don't go outside the recommendation of the cell manufacturers even if they don't use true CC/CV. Yes it will take a little more time, but it's not dangerous nor will it reduce cell life.

3) Some cheap chargers will more or less trickle charge, but it won't make a difference if you pull the cells within a few hours from charge completion. If you don't then you're not supervising the charging which is bad even with the Pila.

The one bad thing about it, is it trickle charges. It is at a very low rate (< 7mA), however you still have to watch leaving the cell on the charger after charge completion is indicated.

I wonder if it stops if you wait long enough? I have the 3.6V-capable model in the same "series" and it stopped (totally) when the voltage got high enough when charging a LiFePO4 cell.