When do you see a noticable Difference in Lumens - Need a light for Police work

[HEDP]

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Currently I'm using a Lumapower MRV SK V1.1 for law enforcement work. I love it. However, during bar close we need to move large crowds and one of the best ways is bright light on strobe.

My Lumapower at 280 lumens works ok, but it really isn't enough. They usually look at it, blink their eyes and continue standing there. I am thinking about switching to Lumapower MVP TurboForce P7 LED which has 700 lumens.

I basically need a light that will not only blind them, but make it uncomfortable to be shone on, even with their eyes closed, so they will have to move. And it has to be rather small and portable, it has to fit on my duty belt.


I am looking for a flashlight that is similar in diameter to the Lumapower MRV SK V1.1 since want to use the same open top holster for it.



1.) Do you think the difference from 280 lumens to 700 lumens will be noticeable?


2.) Will 700 lumens be enough to get people to move?


3.) The Lumapower MRV SK ULTRA is 500 lumens, would that work just as well as the MVP P7 at 700 lumens? (This would be the best solution if it would work just as well as the MVP P7, as it is nearly the exact same light as the MRV I have now and lasts 5 hours on high.)


4.) I see some flashlights are brighter, up to 1,000 lumens, would that be even better?


5.) Battery Junction is out of these lights, where else could I order them that is reliable?


There is this company, but I've never heard of them:

http://www.cfrlights.com/servlet/the-485/milspec%2C-type%2C-III%2C-black%2C/Detail


6.) Is there another light you might recommend?


Thanks.

 

[Swedpat]

Hi HEDP,

I can't answer all questions, but give my personal opinions in red.

Regards, Patric

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1.) Do you think the difference from 280 lumens to 700 lumens will be noticeable?
If it's a true difference of 700/280=2,5 times, the difference will be significant.

3.) The Lumapower MRV SK ULTRA is 500 lumens, would that work just as well as the MVP P7 at 700 lumens? (This would be the best solution if it would work just as well as the MVP P7, as it is nearly the exact same light as the MRV I have now and lasts 5 hours on high.)
You will perceive 500lumens at only slightly dimmer than 700lumens.

4.) I see some flashlights are brighter, up to 1,000 lumens, would that be even better?
1000lumens will be slightly brighter than 700lumens, but now you will see a really big difference compared to 280lumens.

 

[RyanA]

Meh, to the person on the other end the brighter light will probably look dimmer (probably a larger LED, this usually means more diffused light). You'd probably want to upgrade the density of the light (lux rather than lumens). I used a custom light with a Cree XR-E R2 and an aspheric lens for a while. Even then it didn't always help. Some people just freeze like deer.:sigh:

Anyways the formula for light density is basically small emitter, high current, and as big an optic as you can comfortably carry. Heatsinking, as always, is also good.

Even now it pretty much boils down to XR-E R2, aspheric lens, or big reflector.

As a side note a more diffused high output light will probably be much more useful to you from a practical standpoint as it will flood areas with light making more things viable in your peripheral vision. As an added bonus there's less of a chance of blinding yourself with it up close. I'd imagine such a light would be very handy for say searching a car.

If you do go the thrower route a light with a large reflector like the Dereelight DBS or something similar would probably be the way to go. Aspherics can be like trying to see through a pinhole.

 

[N/Apower]

A light is not an effective weapon no-matter how many lumens it puts out unless you knock them out with it, or it happens to be a lazer.

 

[Hitthespot]

It takes 4 times as many lumens to appear twice as bright. (all else being equal)

280 Lumens. To appear twice as bright you would need 1120 Lumens. Maybe you just need a light that has an extremely bright and concentrated hot spot?

Bill

 

[eyeeatingfish]

THe MVP will not fit in a belt holster, thats for sure.
I would think that 280 or even 500 lumens on strobe would be annoying to anyone in the area.
You could find someone who mods mags. I dont know the name but someone at work bought one of the modded mags that have 3 MC-E leds. It does not go very far but is very bright and makes people squint.

My experience is that if you shine it in their eyes they will squint whetehr 300 lumens or 1000 lumens.
I think that if they are not looking at the light but sideways the brightness of the strobe will not matter so much. Even if it has 1000 lumens and is strobing I don't think it will hurt their eyes if it is only bouncing off of a wall or something. And even 300 lumens should still get their attention.

Keep in mind that if you blind them they might have a harder time navigating away from the area making things slower.

Police blue strobes might be more effective.

 

[tnathletics2b]

I have a P7 (modded mag) that is rated at 800 lumens, so I figure it is running at 500+ or so, and I cannot physically bring myself to look at it. I believe 700 or so lumens focused tight enough will be plenty to get people to move. I see spots for a good minute or so just getting close to looking at it...

 

[Roland]

When people do not listen to police there is a bad attitude.
A flashlight is a tool.
You cannot improve attitude by intimidating people on a structural basis with a tool.

You can easily go up to 6,000 lumens with a strobe. But I would call shining ANY strobe into someones face police brutality and all you will accomplish is agressive feelings towards you and other police officers. All you will accomplish is a counter reaction, more trouble in the long term and disrespect for the police. You will need a increasingly stronger light every few months then.

You should regard yourself as a servant of the public not a punisher.

I think you should question yourself if you want to blind, intimidate or hurt people in a non hostile situation. I think you should not want to be a police officer then.

My advice: Buy a minuscule and much dimmer flashlight and just use it to attract attention so you have the attention of the one you want to speak to.

 

[Swedpat]

It takes 4 times as many lumens to appear twice as bright. (all else being equal)

280 Lumens. To appear twice as bright you would need 1120 Lumens. Maybe you just need a light that has an extremely bright and concentrated hot spot?

Bill

Personally I don't agree. I have many examples when I really perceive 2,5-3 times brighter as twice as bright. And usually I perceive 4 times brighter as more than twice. But that's true our perception usually isn't proportional to the true difference. I just don't agree with that there is a formula which can exactly describe our perception.

Regards, Patric

 

[HEDP]

It takes 4 times as many lumens to appear twice as bright. (all else being equal)

280 Lumens. To appear twice as bright you would need 1120 Lumens. Maybe you just need a light that has an extremely bright and concentrated hot spot?

Bill

Hmmm.....and what light would that be?




What light would you recommend?






And RyanA, thanks for the input, however, your entire post literally went over my head. I'm a simple guy. could you break it down?

.

 

[Hevy Lite]

RA Lights suggests it takes about 140% change in light level to be noticeable. This is a small level of increase below which it will be difficult to notice.

So you must change your 280 lumen light to at least 400 (392 exactly) to be perceived as brighter. The next step is 550 lumens (548.8 exactly).

I must agree that on a "Hows that working for you..." behavioral level, maybe more strobe won't get the job done. However, I do not have a tested suggestion on enhanced tactics.

I would first consider using the light as a pointer to the exit then escalate to directly lighting the small number of slow movers. In my limited experience I have found that a quick shake of a light across the face of the worst actor usually gets results, but sometimes not the desired outcome.

If Alcohol is involved there is always 1-10% of a crowd that thinks they rule the world no matter who you are. Interactions with this lot often ends badly. Badly for them, but badly none the less.

 

[richpalm]

You can easily go up to 6,000 lumens with a strobe. But I would call shining ANY strobe into someones face police brutality and all you will accomplish is agressive feelings towards you and other police officers. All you will accomplish is a counter reaction, more trouble in the long term and disrespect for the police. You will need a increasingly stronger light every few months then.

Not to mention the lawsuit when you strobe the one guy in the crowd that's susceptible to seizures... that'd be my luck.

Rich

 

[pounder]

get an SR90 if you need something obnoxiously bright..it's 2200 lumens! it is rather large though..my 700 lumen solarforce masterpiece is much brighter than my solarforce L2p, but if 280 lumens isn't doing the job then 700 isn't going to be enough either..

 

[oliussw]

When people do not listen to police there is a bad attitude.
A flashlight is a tool.
You cannot improve attitude by intimidating people on a structural basis with a tool.

You can easily go up to 6,000 lumens with a strobe. But I would call shining ANY strobe into someones face police brutality and all you will accomplish is agressive feelings towards you and other police officers. All you will accomplish is a counter reaction, more trouble in the long term and disrespect for the police. You will need a increasingly stronger light every few months then.

You should regard yourself as a servant of the public not a punisher.

I think you should question yourself if you want to blind, intimidate or hurt people in a non hostile situation. I think you should not want to be a police officer then.

My advice: Buy a minuscule and much dimmer flashlight and just use it to attract attention so you have the attention of the one you want to speak to.

What are you even talking about? Shining a light is police brutality? If you base this on some kind of experience/knowledge/case law I would love to hear it. Since you are intimidated by flashlights, make certain not to accidentally shine one your own direction. [Insulting comment removed - DM51]

I base my opinion on years of experience as a police officer working nights in a college town full of drunken fools. We have to do foot patrol here in the bar district or the drunks run wild. It is literally a free-for-all. The OP didn't say anything about it being a non-violent event. I tend to have to move large crowds or drunken people who are talking trash from group to group getting ready to start a fight. Sometimes I have to move large crowds of people because there has been a fight and their friend has been arrested. They are generally not very friendly and their continued presence is a threat to me and my fellow officers.

To the topic at hand:
I don't find a flashlight especially effective at moving people but if you do then more power to you. I think a P7 or MCE based light would work fine for your needs. They would be much brighter but throw would suffer. It soulds like you need it for close up work so that wouldn't matter.

 

[B0wz3r]

According to the textbook I use to teach sensory perception at the university where I am a psychology/cognitive sciences instructor, according to Stevens' Law, the formula that relates changes in physical stimulus intensity to perceived changes in a stimulus, the physical stimulus for light needs to be increased by a minimum of 1/3rd the previous intensity for there to be a perceived difference in brightness. (Sensation and Perception, An Integrated Approach, 5th ed., Richard Harvey Shiffman, 2001, J. Wiley & Sons.)

We have to do foot patrol here in the bar district or the drunks run wild. It is literally a free-for-all.

Ah... good ol' New Orleans!!!

Can we all agree to leave the judgment out of the thread here and refrain from accusation and recrimination? Not only is such commentary inappropriate and makes the commenter look bad, but rejoinders in response leave their poster looking foolish as well.

 

[HEDP]

RA Lights suggests it takes about 140% change in light level to be noticeable. This is a small level of increase below which it will be difficult to notice.

So you must change your 280 lumen light to at least 400 (392 exactly) to be perceived as brighter. The next step is 550 lumens (548.8 exactly).

I must agree that on a "Hows that working for you..." behavioral level, maybe more strobe won't get the job done. However, I do not have a tested suggestion on enhanced tactics.

I would first consider using the light as a pointer to the exit then escalate to directly lighting the small number of slow movers. In my limited experience I have found that a quick shake of a light across the face of the worst actor usually gets results, but sometimes not the desired outcome.

If Alcohol is involved there is always 1-10% of a crowd that thinks they rule the world no matter who you are. Interactions with this lot often ends badly. Badly for them, but badly none the less.

So do you think 500 lumens would be enough or I need the 700 lumens or do you think more?



For N/Apower, Roland, and Richpalm: I don't want to get away from the point of this thread, which is about flashlights. However, I will say the light is me being thoughtful for people. We also use horses and a lot of mace. A light is minor compared to mace or horses and leaves no physical pain, not even temporary.


We are in a downtown bar area and usually have 2,000 to 5,000 drunk people who don't want to leave. We are attempting to get them out of downtown since it is too dangerous for them to be there.


The last 2 nights I worked, Saturday and Sunday we had a shooting each night. One was shot in the chest the other in the back. The Saturday before a girl got shot in the chest also. That is why we want them to leave.


Not a lot of people understand how it is down here every Friday, Saturday and Sunday, but it's extremely dangerous. The more people who hang around, the more likely they will get hurt, robbed or killed, especially since they are drunk and usually un-able to care for themselves.


We also close down the roads to vehicle traffic, so hopefully no one will get hit.

 

[Hitthespot]

Hmmm.....and what light would that be?




What light would you recommend?





.

http://www.brightguy.com/products/Coast_X21_LED_Lenser_Flashlight_8437_Speed_Focus.php

 

[RyanA]

Ok, so you hear a lot about how HIDs throw very far. The reason for that is because the arc which produces light in a HID is extremely small and extremely bright. This allows the reflector to be focused very precisely. There are actually production HIDs that can be focused on all three axes.

Now I'm not saying to get an HID, all but a few HID's have long "warm up" times.
In most cases strobe would not be possible.

But consider this analogy. It's not perfect since there's really no reflectors are involved. Consider say a bonfire and a welding torch. Now a bonfire will light up a large area but also takes up a lot of space, so the intensity of the light is not very strong. A person is able to look directly at a bonfire with few if any repercussions. Now a welders torch will light up a smaller area, but the amount of space that the light is produced in is extremely small. So the light produced by a welders torch is extremely intense. If a person were to stare at a welders torch, blindness could occur.

(You can skip this next section of gibberish if you'd like)
This is somewhat analogous to say an MC-E and an XR-E an MC-E's surface area is 4 times larger than that of an XR-E (4mm2 vs 1mm2) Now according to Cree a cool white (more blueish) MC-E running in each chip (there are 4) at 350ma will produce 430 - 370 lumens. A cool white XR-E according to Cree will produce 107 - 80 lumens at 350ma. Now each chip in the MC-E can only be run at a maxiumum of 700ma because the chips are close together running at higher currents would produce too much heat and reduce light output. An XR-E can run at 1000ma (some have gone higher 1200ma, 1400ma etc.) So lets state that hypothetically that an MC-E at 2.8 amps (700ma x 4) produces 800 lumens, and an XR-E at one amp makes 250 lumens. Though the MC-E can make more light with less power, the XR-E procduces light that is approximately 25% more intense than the MC-E (800lm /4mm2 = 200lm per 1mm2 vs. 250lm per 1mm2 for the XR-E).
(O.K. resume reading)

So in this analogy the MC-E is the Bonfire and the XR-E is the welding torch. Now I'm not talking about damaging peoples vision intentionally, but the XR-E will appear brighter to a person who the light is being shined at than an MC-E.


Now with all of that said. If I were you I would go a completely different route. If you have department issued magchargers I would go ahead and make a few modifications (100% reversable). I can explain further if you're interested. But to make it short I would build what is called an MC85. This produces approximatively 1000 lumens, and with the reflector focused the light will travel a very long distance (very intense) It is also possible to build a similar setup into a 3 cell Surefire, but thow and runtime will suffer. Also although the light will start instantaneously, strobe will not really be possible since the filament does not cool down (and thus does not stop producing light) instantaneously. This is also why incandescent lights do not flicker when run on alternating current.

 

[Chroma]

When people do not listen to police there is a bad attitude.
A flashlight is a tool.
You cannot improve attitude by intimidating people on a structural basis with a tool.

You can easily go up to 6,000 lumens with a strobe. But I would call shining ANY strobe into someones face police brutality and all you will accomplish is agressive feelings towards you and other police officers. All you will accomplish is a counter reaction, more trouble in the long term and disrespect for the police. You will need a increasingly stronger light every few months then.

You should regard yourself as a servant of the public not a punisher.

I think you should question yourself if you want to blind, intimidate or hurt people in a non hostile situation. I think you should not want to be a police officer then.

My advice: Buy a minuscule and much dimmer flashlight and just use it to attract attention so you have the attention of the one you want to speak to.

How anybody can perceive this from a cop wanting to shine a flashlight to get somebody to move is beyond me.

Cops often use non-lethal methods of crowd control. Pepper balls, rubber balls, stun grenades. Of course, this guy is doing nothing remotely near that level of control. He simply wants a bright light so that people are uncomfy and move a bit faster. Understandable for most rational people.

I would recommend something really bright like a Thrunite Catapult or other SST-50 based "searchlight" type of light, maybe even a MCE based Olight Triton. They are big and bulky, but they push out 700 to 900 lumens and the difference between that and a 280 lumen light is absolutely noticeable.

 

[ama230]

So do you think 500 lumens would be enough or I need the 700 lumens or do you think more?



For N/Apower, Roland, and Richpalm: I don't want to get away from the point of this thread, which is about flashlights. However, I will say the light is me being thoughtful for people. We also use horses and a lot of mace. A light is minor compared to mace or horses and leaves no physical pain, not even temporary.


We are in a downtown bar area and usually have 2,000 to 5,000 drunk people who don't want to leave. We are attempting to get them out of downtown since it is too dangerous for them to be there.


The last 2 nights I worked, Saturday and Sunday we had a shooting each night. One was shot in the chest the other in the back. The Saturday before a girl got shot in the chest also. That is why we want them to leave.


Not a lot of people understand how it is down here every Friday, Saturday and Sunday, but it's extremely dangerous. The more people who hang around, the more likely they will get hurt, robbed or killed, especially since they are drunk and usually un-able to care for themselves.


We also close down the roads to vehicle traffic, so hopefully no one will get hit.

Anything in the 200lumen range is going to be more than adequate. The magcharger and streamlights are only 100lumen and have very warm beams.

As with a cool white led model, you are going to need less intensity due to white being able to do better in color rendition at night.

There is no need for a 1000lumen light its just for collecting and signaling for batman. Also these require expensive batteries and external charging as you have to pull out the battery and then charge and then put back in. There are few great rechargeable light that do it while the battery is inside the light.

For a suggestion you should look at 5.11 for their pc3.300 flashlight as its worth every penny and does not need any maintainance as you charge for 30 seconds and lasts for 1hr 30min on high(200 lumen) then eight hours on low(40lumen). The ramp function is the best model as you can pick these up at LA police gear.com LAPG.com This light is indestructable and beam is actually useful. Very light and floats!!! Very under rated too... I give mine 11/10 as they did their homework on actual usefulness and durability.

This is definitely a light to consider as I can guarantee you will love it. This is the only light out there that will be your last because the ultracaps will last over a hundred years(a couple charges a day) and the leds will eventually give out around 50 years. A real game changer and charges in 90 seconds.

Also with anything above 500lumen its going to suffer in runtime and heat is going to be an issue. These are more for a quick use and then put away instead of prolonged runtimes unless you got a 4D maglite which is huge.

Hope this helps,
Eric