Why are ARC LS so darn expensive???
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Joeyv8
Newly Enlightened
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paulr said:
The LSH-S for $70 at Countycomm is pretty tempting... it makes a Minimag with a Luxeon pill ($50 or more unless you're real careful) a lot less attractive. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
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I'm hooked.....on its way to my sweet home. Can't wait to stay awake all night to play with it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
paulr said:
The LSH-S for $70 at Countycomm is pretty tempting... it makes a Minimag with a Luxeon pill ($50 or more unless you're real careful) a lot less attractive. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
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I'm hooked.....on its way to my sweet home. Can't wait to stay awake all night to play with it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Carpe Diem
Flashlight Enthusiast
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keithhr said:
plastic baggy packaging purism, I'm going to have to reflect on that. This is my third attempt at a reply, the first two I erased because I'm not sure how they would have been received. I hope the next arc that I buy comes in a custom made, hand engraved rosewood box. Or at least an cardboard box with ARC flashights printed on the side.
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Between the two of us, we certainly have the "packaging spectrum" covered!
Best wishes to you.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
keithhr said:
plastic baggy packaging purism, I'm going to have to reflect on that. This is my third attempt at a reply, the first two I erased because I'm not sure how they would have been received. I hope the next arc that I buy comes in a custom made, hand engraved rosewood box. Or at least an cardboard box with ARC flashights printed on the side.
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Between the two of us, we certainly have the "packaging spectrum" covered!
Best wishes to you.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
justaguy: true, but that would be assuming arc has a surplus of lights, which they don't. if price goes down, then the quantity demanded will rise, with arc being unable to supply enough lights to satisfy the demand. most companies always seek to hit the equilibrum price, whereby the quantity demanded matches the supply. at the moment arc sometimes still has trouble with supplying enough lights to its dealers, so if anything, speaking strictly from an economic POV the only way the price can go right now is up.
if and when in the future when availibility of the luxeon star LEDs go up and quality control is improved, arc then might be able to supply more lights and lower the price and expand their company. at the moment arc is probably still in its infancy, so the high prices are the only way to go about ensuring their survival.
i too thought i'd never buy an arc ls, but i recently got an lsh-p and i'm very happy with it. i'm currently trying to sell it because i prefer an led with a slightly blue tint as opposed to the current one i have which is slightly green /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
if and when in the future when availibility of the luxeon star LEDs go up and quality control is improved, arc then might be able to supply more lights and lower the price and expand their company. at the moment arc is probably still in its infancy, so the high prices are the only way to go about ensuring their survival.
i too thought i'd never buy an arc ls, but i recently got an lsh-p and i'm very happy with it. i'm currently trying to sell it because i prefer an led with a slightly blue tint as opposed to the current one i have which is slightly green /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Entropy
Enlightened
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nightgaunt said:
Thanks for the welcome, Paul W.
I've been "lurking" on this forum for a few months, and finally decided to post.
Gransee, I understand about handmade products and great quality control. I have always lusted after the Arc LS, and one day I will get one. Right now, the cost seems a bit steep...thanks for the cost breakdown. I have several lights (CMG Infin., Tikka, Inovas..), and just wanted to see what the deal was. I guess it's like the BMW vs. Ford debate, eh?? I have caught the knife bug (too much $$ spent!!), and this is somewhat new to me. It is cool to have the owner of the company reply so quickly!
Also, how do you test for the "premium grade" LEDs? Also, how many people work at ARC? Thanks!
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BMW vs. Ford?
I don't think this is a good comparison... More like:
Ford - Cheapo K-Mart/WallyWorld plastic flashlights
BMW - MagLite
Rolls-Royce, Maserati, or the like - ARC
At least in the past, the #1 reason RRs were so expensive is because they were largely hand-assembled. I believe the same is/was the case for Maserati - Much of the car is carefully put together by hand.
nightgaunt said:
Thanks for the welcome, Paul W.
I've been "lurking" on this forum for a few months, and finally decided to post.
Gransee, I understand about handmade products and great quality control. I have always lusted after the Arc LS, and one day I will get one. Right now, the cost seems a bit steep...thanks for the cost breakdown. I have several lights (CMG Infin., Tikka, Inovas..), and just wanted to see what the deal was. I guess it's like the BMW vs. Ford debate, eh?? I have caught the knife bug (too much $$ spent!!), and this is somewhat new to me. It is cool to have the owner of the company reply so quickly!
Also, how do you test for the "premium grade" LEDs? Also, how many people work at ARC? Thanks!
[/ QUOTE ]
BMW vs. Ford?
I don't think this is a good comparison... More like:
Ford - Cheapo K-Mart/WallyWorld plastic flashlights
BMW - MagLite
Rolls-Royce, Maserati, or the like - ARC
At least in the past, the #1 reason RRs were so expensive is because they were largely hand-assembled. I believe the same is/was the case for Maserati - Much of the car is carefully put together by hand.
JollyRoger
Enlightened
chamenos....you shouldn't be waiting too much longer! (hint-hint)
Rothrandir
Flashaholic
you're all a little off...
saturn - cheapo lights, available anywhere
chevy - maglite
rolls-royce/lamborgini/... - arc /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
there are of course many companies in between /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
arcs are 'spensive, but you get what you pay for /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
for the techonology, quality, customer service...it's like getting a brand new rolls from a friend with a dealership /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
saturn - cheapo lights, available anywhere
chevy - maglite
rolls-royce/lamborgini/... - arc /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
there are of course many companies in between /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
arcs are 'spensive, but you get what you pay for /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
for the techonology, quality, customer service...it's like getting a brand new rolls from a friend with a dealership /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
geepondy
Flashlight Enthusiast
I think the lights are/will be worth the money if and when the consistancy gets ironed out on the Luxeons. Meanwhile, I've bought expensive purple KL1's from Surefire and expensive green Arc's from Arcflashlight. My whitest low dome one happens to be a BB500 sandwich and I'm sure that was just luck of the draw also because I bought three of them and they all varied in tint and color. Meanwhile I refuse to spend the arc kind of money on a low dome until I am satisfied the problem has been taken care of. I have some amount of hope because my two Everled sidewinders both have consistant white beams with no coronas or color tints.
Given that the LS itself is rated to 100K hours, not buying extra bulbs in 11 continuous years of use would more than pay for itself...
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
The design of the Arc, the circuitry, the LS and the customer service are what you are paying for. And for the lack of better description, Peter's customer service takes the headaches out of trying to fix a problemed light.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
The design of the Arc, the circuitry, the LS and the customer service are what you are paying for. And for the lack of better description, Peter's customer service takes the headaches out of trying to fix a problemed light.
I think part of the question is how is a $100 Arc LS different from a $20 Arc AAA and why is it so much more expensive, since both have gotten the same great design attention and have the same great CS:
1) LS has bigger case with more complicated machining, but still not especially more complicated than a 2AA Minimag. So this adds something but I think not a huge amount.
2) LS has more powerful electronics that cost a little more.
3) (the biggie in terms of parts/production cost) The LS has the Luxeon led which costs a lot in the first place, and then a lot of them have to be tested and rejected. As Geepondy says, maybe this will ease up as Lumileds gets its yields up.
4) New LS's have the Kroll switch, adding a few bucks in parts cost (I like the twist cap better)
5) LS's are produced in lower volume, so less economy of scale and more NRE (i.e. development costs) to be amortized in each unit. This is probably a big factor, and complications like the range of LS battery packs add to it.
6) LS is even more of a high-end item than AAA in market positioning, so pricing reflects that. I think this accounts for a lot too.
Traditionally in the electronics biz, your gadget has to retail for at least 5x its parts cost in order to be profitable. In the Arc LS, the LED alone accounts for a pretty big chunk of the LS's retail price.
1) LS has bigger case with more complicated machining, but still not especially more complicated than a 2AA Minimag. So this adds something but I think not a huge amount.
2) LS has more powerful electronics that cost a little more.
3) (the biggie in terms of parts/production cost) The LS has the Luxeon led which costs a lot in the first place, and then a lot of them have to be tested and rejected. As Geepondy says, maybe this will ease up as Lumileds gets its yields up.
4) New LS's have the Kroll switch, adding a few bucks in parts cost (I like the twist cap better)
5) LS's are produced in lower volume, so less economy of scale and more NRE (i.e. development costs) to be amortized in each unit. This is probably a big factor, and complications like the range of LS battery packs add to it.
6) LS is even more of a high-end item than AAA in market positioning, so pricing reflects that. I think this accounts for a lot too.
Traditionally in the electronics biz, your gadget has to retail for at least 5x its parts cost in order to be profitable. In the Arc LS, the LED alone accounts for a pretty big chunk of the LS's retail price.
I'm a big fan of ARCs (my EDC is LSH-P and i can't wait for the LS4-P to be out), but i do agree that it's expensive. A SureFire E1 is about $50. Even with an additional KL1 bezel (LS led), it's about $100, and you end up with 2 lights. Also, while the quality of ARC LS is very high, I think SureFires and Inovas are equally well built.
Having said all that, I would still buy an ARC LSH anytime because it is the nicest, smallest single 123 light with a very bright LS in it.
Having said all that, I would still buy an ARC LSH anytime because it is the nicest, smallest single 123 light with a very bright LS in it.
An E1+KL1 costs more than an LSH, is bigger and is likely to have a worse LED. Once you have the KL1 the incandescent E1 head is sort of redundant so you don't really have two lights. So I'd get the Arc over the E1/KL1.
An E2+KL1 is a more interesting, since the MN03 head stays useful, and the E2 can take the KL4 head when it comes out. But any E2 light is so much bigger than the Arc LS that it doesn't compare directly. It's a different kind of light.
Frankly all these 1-watt LS lights seem a little kludgy to me. The McLux wins in component interoperability and cool looks, but no Luxeon light to date comes near the technical purity of the Arc AAA. Even the tvodrd mini-lights have drawbacks in heat dissipation and in form factor (though I want one anyway). Every cubic millimeter of the AAA is there for a reason. It has no extraneous features and its internal sophistication is completely unobtrusive. It's a thing of beauty, even if not as universally useful as a brighter light.
It will be interesting to see the LS4 and LS5 when they come out. I wonder if they could eventually be the same light. There could be a new dc-dc converter that could run the 5W Luxeon on 3 volts at reduced power, or 6 (or even 9) volts at full power. Then you could switch battery packs depending on how much max light you wanted to bring with you.
An E2+KL1 is a more interesting, since the MN03 head stays useful, and the E2 can take the KL4 head when it comes out. But any E2 light is so much bigger than the Arc LS that it doesn't compare directly. It's a different kind of light.
Frankly all these 1-watt LS lights seem a little kludgy to me. The McLux wins in component interoperability and cool looks, but no Luxeon light to date comes near the technical purity of the Arc AAA. Even the tvodrd mini-lights have drawbacks in heat dissipation and in form factor (though I want one anyway). Every cubic millimeter of the AAA is there for a reason. It has no extraneous features and its internal sophistication is completely unobtrusive. It's a thing of beauty, even if not as universally useful as a brighter light.
It will be interesting to see the LS4 and LS5 when they come out. I wonder if they could eventually be the same light. There could be a new dc-dc converter that could run the 5W Luxeon on 3 volts at reduced power, or 6 (or even 9) volts at full power. Then you could switch battery packs depending on how much max light you wanted to bring with you.
LEDmodMan
Flashaholic*
Based on the costs I've personally seen involved with building model fighter jets for wind tunnel testing, the Arc LS is a real bargain! Some small precision machined parts for these wind tunnel models are worth more than their weight in Platinum, /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif and they're usually made of high quality stainless steel! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif So you see, pricing is all relative... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
> An E1+KL1 costs more than an LSH, is bigger and is
> likely to have a worse LED. Once you have the KL1 the
> incandescent E1 head is sort of redundant so you don't
> really have two lights. So I'd get the Arc over the E1/KL1
The Surefire E1 is $50. KL1 is $45. My LSH-P brought directly from ARC cost $160 + shipping. Err.. I think the LSH-P is definitely more expensive.
E1 with incandescent is noticeably brighter than with KL1 or LSH-P. So having a KL1 doesn't make the incandescent redundant.
Again, i'm not trying to bash Arc LS as I said i would gladly buy it again. I like the LSH-P a lot. I'm just giving a price comparison against the SureFire single 123 flashlight in light of topic of this thread.
> likely to have a worse LED. Once you have the KL1 the
> incandescent E1 head is sort of redundant so you don't
> really have two lights. So I'd get the Arc over the E1/KL1
The Surefire E1 is $50. KL1 is $45. My LSH-P brought directly from ARC cost $160 + shipping. Err.. I think the LSH-P is definitely more expensive.
E1 with incandescent is noticeably brighter than with KL1 or LSH-P. So having a KL1 doesn't make the incandescent redundant.
Again, i'm not trying to bash Arc LS as I said i would gladly buy it again. I like the LSH-P a lot. I'm just giving a price comparison against the SureFire single 123 flashlight in light of topic of this thread.
treek13
Flashlight Enthusiast
Standard Arc-LS go for $84 - $99 at CPF sponsors and I don't know if you can still find a E1 that is HA (discontinued) and E1E seem to cost over $60.
Let me say that I didn't look too terribly hard but I did check TTS, Meridian, and TW for the Surefire.
Just another price comparison,
Pat
Let me say that I didn't look too terribly hard but I did check TTS, Meridian, and TW for the Surefire.
Just another price comparison,
Pat
Ray_of_Light
Flashlight Enthusiast
I wear contacts and I have problems to see details in the dark. I often have to fiddle with connectors, inside computer boxes, and so on. So I have always carried with me a flashlight. After 20 years of cheap chinese flashlight, plus 10 years of Mag's, finally the LED cometh. After cheap LED light blowing like incandescent, I found flashlights with Nichia. I carried a PT Attitude in the back pocket of my Lee for over a year. Then, I put an Opalec NewBeam in a PT Blast, which is half of the size. Then I discovered Arcs. They have NONE of the known defect of all other flashlights I owned. I also have a E2e with KL1, but is not the same thing. This is why I do not look at the price tag for a GOOD flashlight: 30 years using bugged flashlight!
Anthony
Anthony
obeck
Newly Enlightened
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treek13 said:
Standard Arc-LS go for $84 - $99 at CPF sponsors .
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Additionally, if your want is for a good light and not for perfection, the ARC LSx seconds go for $60. Thats the same as a MiniMag+BB400 combo.
If you really want an Arc LS, there is one in your price range.
treek13 said:
Standard Arc-LS go for $84 - $99 at CPF sponsors .
[/ QUOTE ]
Additionally, if your want is for a good light and not for perfection, the ARC LSx seconds go for $60. Thats the same as a MiniMag+BB400 combo.
If you really want an Arc LS, there is one in your price range.
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