Why LED flashlights?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I've just crunched a couple of numbers and it seems to me like the advantages of LED torches seem pretty overated.

For example the white Luxeon emitter (apparently the most advanced white LED around) requires around 3.4v and requires 350mA. This adds up to 1.19 watts and according to Lumileds it'll put out 18 lumens.

On the other hand a cheap Krypton incandescent bulb (2.4v 0.7A) uses 1.68 watts and puts out the same amount of light.

A 1.92 watt 2.8v halogen puts out 34 lumens, almost twice as bright and according to the numbers, is 17% more efficient than the Luxeon.

And the price:
2.4v Krypton - $0.50
2.8v Halogen - around $4.00
Luxeon Emitter - $11.55

For bright torches, LEDs aren't quite as efficient as many believe. It looks like its only real advantage is its long operating life but you still have to consider significantly higher initial cost.

I think we'll have to wait a couple more years until LED flashlights can truly give incandescent torches some real competition.

What do you guys think?

Do LEDS have a future in bright flashlights or will other designs like Xenon-halogen or even metal halide take over?

 

[Darell]

Couple of thoughts:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>1. Drop a flashlight equiped with an LED and one equiped with an incandescent.
2. Use an incandescent for 100 hours (or 100,000 hours, whichever is more convenient).
3. Try reading by the typically blotchy output of an incandescent.
4. Touch an incandescent bulb that has been on for just a few seconds.
5. Give an incandescent light to a 2-year-old and see how long it lasts (refer to item 1. above)
6. Size (show me the incandescent that beats a Photon or Arc for size/output)
[/list]

Incandescents definitely have their place, and they are certainly brighter for the money/power. But LEDs have their place too, and really LED lights are all I use now due to the benefits sarcastically described above.

We're crazy over here on the LED board, but precious few of us are stupid enough (or rich enough) to just throw our money away.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Ah yes, LEDs are more durable.. I forget all about that.

But whats weird is that I've never broken the globe in a normal torch before and in general the switch or something else fails before the globe does. I'm using a decent Energizer 6AA double barrel now and its seems to take accidental drops pretty well.

"blotchy output of an incandescent"... what do you mean? I have a cheap 2AA incandescent that which I use all the time to read in the dark although I must admit my white LED torch (a VERY cheap $7 3AAA plastic model) produces a "nicer" colour for reading, although it is slightly blue.

About point 4, I believe that the Luxeon also gets hots. Most LEDS don't get hot simply because they don't use very much power.

#6.. of course. LEDs draw little power so they can use those round thin lithiums. But the Surefire E1 isn't much bigger and is MUCH brighter.. of course you have to replace the batteries every 2 hours!

Daniel, thats one great vision for the future! If you're right and brighter and more efficient LEDs come into the market (at a reasonable price), more people may take them seriously.

"sixty watt bulb is something like 3 watts for an LED cluster" ... Not quite. Currently the Luxeon draws about 1.1 watts and three would output as much light as 4 watt incandescent, not a 60!

For general lighting I see metal halide or compact fluros taking over.

As you know compact fluros are much more efficient than incandescents (even xenon-halogens) and LEDs. The colour of these lights have significantly improved from the cold blue to a nice warm "incandescent" colour. Because the prices have dropped a lot and I use them in a couple of rooms. Once they get them to work well in cold conditions and decrease the start-up times (and the price), they may quickly replace incandescents.

Metal halides are currently very expensive but they are VERY energy efficient. A 20 watt globe puts out as much light as an 80watt halogen (or an imaginary 160 watt standard incandescent!). I've seen a bike headlight (Cateye) that uses a 21 watt globe and a handheld torch (Xenonics) which is even more powerful. If they can make low-powered versions (like 3-4 volts) and make they under $30, these would be THE ULTIMATE torch!

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Whats the fun in incandescent mods? Most of my flashlights already have the incandescent bulbs in them and I cant see the fun in putting another one in that would just fit in there like it was made for it

Nope I think the LED mods are much more chalenging and I do agree with you that incandescent lights are great... great for breaking apart and putting in an LED

 

[dat2zip]

I've got many LED's and I definitely agree that under most situations why bother.

But, If you compare the Luxeon LED like the white Star /O LED. It throws such a uniform beam that is quite wide. Really impressive and very bright. Comparitively, my mini mag adjusted for bright beam is very narrow to get the same brightness and there is a much wider beam but much less light. No matter how I adjust the mini mag, I never get the same light beam pattern and uniformity as the LS LED.

2ndly, check out my LS LED flashlight at my web page. I love using the low power mode for super long time and the light remains true white low or high. Can't say that for incandescents.

 

[Darell]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Someguy:
I've never broken the globe in a normal torch before and in general the switch or something else fails before the globe does.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow. Seriously? You've never even burned a bulb out? You're very lucky, you don't use the lights much, or you only drop them on soft things

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
"blotchy output of an incandescent"... what do you mean?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just fire up any Mag light, and you'll have your answer. LED's are typically MUCH more uniform.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
About point 4, I believe that the Luxeon also gets hots. Most LEDS don't get hot simply because they don't use very much power.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't speak for the LS directly since I've never had one in my hands, but I know it CAN get warm - especially if over-driven. But no, LEDS are not cooler because they use less power - they're cooler because they do not produce light from heating a thin wire. Incandscent light bulbs are far more efficient heaters than they are light-sources.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
#6.. of course. LEDs draw little power so they can use those round thin lithiums. But the Surefire E1 isn't much bigger and is MUCH brighter.. of course you have to replace the batteries every 2 hours!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, time out. I thought one of your arguments against LED lights was cost. You can't go dropping Surefires on me! Yes, the Surefires are awesome lights - but even the little E1 is probably 25 times bigger and 100 times heavier than a Photon - costs 5x as much, and the lasts 1/76th as long on a set of batteries (rated battery life of the E1 is 90 minutes, a red Photon is 114 hours if I remember correctly) - and that's before you get into the expense of replacing the bulb. Yup, WAY brighter, but there are severe costs associated with that brightness that need to be considered. It's actually silly to even compare. My point is that there is no truly SMALL incandescent that is as usuable as many of the little LED lights that are becoming so popular. At least none that I am aware of. I have the Mag Solitaire, and compared to the very similar (but still smaller yet) Arc AAA - well, there's just no comparison!

 

[Silviron]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daniel Ramsey:
... Its either we find a 3 cell AA case (rare)....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Brinkmann makes a 3AA cell light, (it's on their website) but I've never been able to find one in stores, and they are nineteen bucks direct from brinkmann.

LED lights are not (yet, anyway) a universal panacea for darkness, but they are hard to beat for a little pocket light or for miners/cavers etc. since you don't usually need all that much light and longevity / reliability can be a matter if life or death.

I like 'em!

 

[Empath]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Someguy:
Ah yes, LEDs are more durable.. I forget all about that.

But whats weird is that .......<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Someguy, it's best to avoid thinking two dimensionally in a three dimensional world. The either/or scenario you imagine doesn't exist. The competitive advantages of one or the other is not going to destroy the other, but will compliment them. The disadvantages of one or the other is not going to stall the development of any of the systems. The incandescent, by virtue of using the light as the useful by-product of heat is inefficient, but that hasn't stalled the development of more efficient or versatile incandescent. In other systems, such as the LED, heat is the by-product, not wanted, and will be engineered out as much as practical. Now, let's see you engineer out the wasteful heat of your precious incandescents and still come up with useful light.

Metal halide may be a viable portable light system, but FLASHlights they aren't. There's a reason for the "flash" in the name. Fluorescent, LEDs, incandescent, or whatever systems one uses are useful, and excel in one application or the other. Think of improvements that can be made NOW, and the future will take care of itself. If you think only of future improvement you'll miss the bridge between here and there; you waste your time and ours.

 

[Nick]

One more point:

A white LED's output is always white no matter what the voltage or current is.

An Incandesent bulb's output on the other hand turns a red-orange color when the voltage or current is low

 

[Brock]

Darn Nick got it before I did. I like LED's because they don't turn yellow as the batteries die.

I do agree though that after you get bigger then the Arc size or the Surefire E2, you might as well go incandescent. They tend to be cheaper, put out more light and smaller. Then again you loose all the LED qualities mentioned above. Although the Tektite 1400 is very nice for lighting underwater.

 

[L.E.D.]

I'd have to say Darell thoroughly beat the (expletive which means undigested protein matter) out of SomeGuy on point #6. probably on point # 1, also!

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Wow you guys really are passionate about LED lighting!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Wow. Seriously? You've never even burned a bulb out? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe I have burnt out a 2.4V Krypton bulb once but I have never shattered or broken a globe by dropping the torch.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Just fire up any Mag light, and you'll have your answer. LED's are typically MUCH more uniform<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It depends on the torch reflector and lens design. I have a cheap LED torch, an halogen torch and experimental red LEDS and none produce a even and uniform light.

However you cannot discard one of the most biggest advantages of incandescent's ability to be used in candle mode. Tried that with a LED with very little success

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>My point is that there is no truly SMALL incandescent <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thats true. It seems that LED torches are most advantageous when it comes to low-brightness, long-life designs.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Now, let's see you engineer out the wasteful heat of your precious incandescents and still come up with useful light.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thats not the point. High powered LEDs like the Luxeon still put out heat and despite what many people believe, halogen torches still put out more lumens per watt.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Metal halide may be a viable portable light system, but FLASHlights they aren't<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm not too sure about that. Xenonics' torches apparently work very well and the same goes with Cateye's bicycle light.

Lower powered metal halide lamps along with electronics to drive them could be used to produce a very useful torch. People who require instant-on torches will probably be better off with LEDs, incandescents or fluroescents, but metal halide will suit people who requires the torch to be one for more than a couple of minutes at a time.

 

[Darell]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Someguy:
Wow you guys really are passionate about LED lighting!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup. Don't even get me started on EVs - you ain't seen nothin' yet.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
However you cannot discard one of the most biggest advantages of incandescent's ability to be used in candle mode. Tried that with a LED with very little success

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Most biggest"? yikes. Though I've had pretty good luck in creating my own "candle mode" LED lights - if this is your biggest concern, you should really get yourself a lantern. Whatever you do, don't knock your incandescent lamp over when it is in full-exposed candle mode.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> It seems that LED torches are most advantageous when it comes to low-brightness, long-life designs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

...and durability, and consistent, cooler light - yes. This pretty much sums it up. You asked why some people like LEDs, and this is the answer. As others have astutely pointed out - this is not an either/or situation. The different types of lights excel in different areas. One is not ultimately "better" than another - each one is great at some things and not so great at others. The best way to go is to own both types. I do own both. Many of both - but I currently grap an LED light 99% of the time. The 1% is when I'm too lazy to look for an LED if my incandescent is sitting closer, or if I have a more appropriately configured incandescent (like with a gooseneck).

Personally, I almost never need as much light as a good incandescent can offer, and therefor spend most of my cash on LED lights that I use every day. In the (not so) long run, LED lights are always more economical for me to use. That isn't stopping me from currently shopping for an E2, however - thus making my point that owning both is the best way to go!

 

[txwest]

I don't know about everyone else, but I regularly carry an E2 & an ARC LE. When I need a light, I use the one that fits the situation. If I want to look 200-300' down the road, I use my US. But trying to read small print up close with my US or M3 is realy tough. On a night of star gazeing with my telescopes, the last thing I need is a SF or Streamlight. I have a variable output red LED light for that. I can just see looking at a sky chart with my 12PM & trying to maintain my night vision.

I even have both incandescent & flourescent lights in my house, & somestimes both on at the same time.
It's not which light is best...but which light best fits the situation. IMHO
TX

 

[Darell]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daniel Ramsey:
Many homes could also use regeneration devices to charge the central battery for the whole house illumination such as from a 12v connection to the family SUV in an emergency or could easily be installed on an excercise bike. Having an electrical bill of 1/10 would be very good of an excuse for me to install LED lighting in my house, in time soon the prices will fall as the materials needed to make these is much less than what is put into a incandescant, halogen,or flourescant bulb.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm SO glad to hear others thinking like this. I have a small solar-charged 12V battery system, and am slowly powering as much as I can with it. In fact, the computer I'm using right now is 100% renewably powered! I'm designing an LED night-lighting system next...

The big part the bugs me is how many "wall wart" transformers we all have. I must have 20 of them around here. If we could just have a standard DC voltage, we could power all of these devices directly from this central DC source with no conversion losses - and no "always on (while converting) losses." That is my dream, and I'm slowly realizing it.

Just under my desk here I have transformers for my DeskJet, Laserwriter, cordless phone, scanner, router, modem, powered speakers, USB hub...and that's just ONE room. If they all ran on the same DC voltage, I could power them about 10x more efficiently with my DC source.

Glad to hear from a kindered spirit! I think we're gonna have to hang out more - mostly since I have this "dream" and you seem to know how to actaully do stuff.

 

[Darell]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by txwest:

It's not which light is best...but which light best fits the situation. IMHO
TX<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. And of course the same rules apply WITHIN the two catagories too. I'm not gonna use the expensive batteries in my Photon for reading late into the night - but I'll sure use my Infinity into the wee hours.

 

[Darell]

I don't know why this just came to me at 12:42am, but here's another for my list:

7. You can touch LEDs with your bare hands! (I dare you to put a new bulb in your E2 with your bare fingers, and turn it on - there's an expensive lesson that'll cost you the price of a Photon).

 

[ikendu]

Carrying both an incandescent and a LED is a great balance.

For MANY campers, walkers, casual flashlight users; a cheap 2-AA Krypton bulb unit (cost about $3) will completely do the job; cheap, bright, instant-on, get batteries from anywhere. What this solution really lacks is reliability. The light will just suddenly QUIT if it is dropped or the short life bulb burns out or the short life batteries give out.

So, for MANY users, just also carry a nice LED like a Photon, ARC AAA or Infinity (my favorite for camping...in the blue-green).

Use the LED when all you need is just a modest amount of light (which is most of the time IMHO).

Best of both worlds:
Incandescent...$3 - CHEAP brightness
Infinity LED.....$13- CHEAP power and great reliability

...and when the AAs quit in the incandescent, just pop them into the Infinity to get free lighting from that point on!

If you are not camping and just need an occasional spot of light...carry a Photon II on your keychain.

If your casual keychain use is more than 1 hour per month, switch to an ARC AAA on the keychain.

Story:

My daughter went to the Phillipines for a month to do back country field research. I figured her access to fresh batteries would be poor so I bought her a solar charger for 4 AAs to power the Dorcy 4 AA focusing incandescent lamp (REALLY bright). I also sent along my first, newly acquired Infinity (in yellow).

At first, everyone admired her REALLY bright Dorcy. Then the batteries ran down. They were moving camp and hiking every day, so she couldn't really set up the solar charger (it takes all day to charge). So, no more Dorcy. She switched to the Infinity.

Not as bright (by a long shot), but it did what she needed. She used it for a month. Then my wife took it camping in South Dakota. We are still using the original battery for around the house. So... one AA went to the Philipines, South Dakota and now lights up 'around the house/yard at night' walks. That same AA is STILL GOING.

Man...I am sold on that Infinity!

I did replace the yellow with a blue-green (way better light output).

We still use a incandescent if we need brightness:
RayOVac 2AA Walmart - $3
Dorcy 4AA Walmart - $3

But, that doesn't come up so very often.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

BTW - In the house, I use a mix of compact flourescent (for most lighting needs) and incandescent (if I'm using a dimmer or I need it to be really bright). So, a balance works there as well.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I have to agree with ikendu about modest light needs when camping. Its best to preserve your night vision when possible. Once you turn on that big bright white flashlight, your vision is screwed. Then you must either continue using that big bright white flashlight, or wait 20-30 min for your eyes to readjust. Low power, monochromatic light allows you to see where you are going and read a map just fine, while preserving your night vision (just ask anyone who has been in the military). NOTHING produces low-power monochromatic light more cost effectively than an LED. 40 hrs of blue/green light from an Infinity.

Times you need bright white flashlight camping: 1. you dropped something small in the weeds 2. search/rescue 3. rendering medical aid (is that blood or mud on the victim..can't tell under blue light) 4. Secret agent stuff (must cut red wire to disarm nuke...damn they all look the same under blue light)

 

[Carpe Diem]

The world of LED`s and the world of incandescents are akin to two different "food groups"... they`re both needed and, as already mentioned in this thread, highly compliment each other. Neither should ever try to declare any type of victory over the other.

What is nice is that both are exciting to study, admire and collect. Hooray for Sure Fires and Arcs... and all of the other lights that shine in the lives of flashaholics!

Enjoy.