kramer5150
Flashaholic
No. Surefires battle against pentagonlight was over the patented design of the Z41, and Pentagon's copying of that design.
SF does not have MAGs history of suing even if they have no grounds.
Last edited:
Why the maglite hate?
- Thread starter Lumenshroom
- Start date
- Status
No. Surefires battle against pentagonlight was over the patented design of the Z41, and Pentagon's copying of that design.
SF does not have MAGs history of suing even if they have no grounds.
sabre7
Enlightened
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2007
- Messages
- 559
+1! Very well said and very true!!! :twothumbs
joshconsulting
Enlightened
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2009
- Messages
- 640
My DX K-106 is 5 times brighter then a maglight 3\4 C\D, and has a longer battery life on low. It has a far superior finish to my maglights, which is flaking off within months. It doesn't need a spare bulb in case it gets dropped, I never have leaking problems, and I got a set of rechargeables and charger for less then the maglight - to say nothing of replacement costs.
No, it doesn't have a lifetime warranty like Maglights, but I can buy several for the same cost and I highly doubt they'll fail - my K-106 has been through some pretty rough accidents and is almost literally without a scratch. My maglight lived in my trunk a few months and came out with a chipped, peeling finish, broken bulb, and leaking batteries.
Oh, and did I mention that the K-106 is 20 times lighter (literally) and dozens of times smaller then the maglight? I can slip it in my pocket and notice it less then my phone, but the maglight is a pain to lug around for an hour or two, to say nothing of all day. I introduced my friend (an electrician) to one, and he thinks of it as the holy grail of lights compared to his 2xAA minimag.
Yes, I've had quality lights. Yes, I just sold a DBS with SST-50 and a L2P with SST-50. But the K-106 is my favorite light of all, and stands out as a light I can recommend to friends with no misgivings. I've seen 5 ordered from DX, and all are top notch quality - a little Nyogel on the threads and they're waterproof and good to go.
Stock Maglites are horrible in my opinion but they make great hosts for modding. All of the maglites I own have been modded in some way. All of the Maglites I give away as gifts have been modded in some fashion. Great host, but not very good stock.
was.lost.but.now.found
Enlightened
johnny3073
Newly Enlightened
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2008
- Messages
- 40
I think it's wonderful that you are happy with your DX light. I'm sure that there are probably hundreds of other happy Akoray K-106 owners out there that share your enthusiasm.
We might need to contact MagLite directly and request that they contact a hundred million or so of their past customers and let them know that their junk lights won't even last "a few months" in the lightest of service duty. :crackup:
Last edited:
joshconsulting
Enlightened
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2009
- Messages
- 640
:thumbsdow
Quote the point where I said they only lasted a few months, and I'll eat my words. Chipped finishes, a well documented maglight problem, doesn't mean your light ceases to function. It just means it scratches more easily, is possibly exposed to corrosion in a harsh environment, and looks worse. The bulb problem is solved in the new LED models but still exists in the old incandescents - try a drop test from a few meters onto concrete a few times with a maglight, and I guarantee it will fail in a couple of falls while the K-106 won't suffer a bit (both have happened to me). There's a reason you can buy bulb packs and spare bulbs are included in the tailcap. And maglights in stock form are rarely watertight, whereas I've used my K-106 while swimming with no adverse effects - it's even survived a few wash cycles.
Overall, the vaunted 'durable' maglight is indeed a tough light, especially in its LED form, but it has some weaknesses to the point that most decently-manufactured lights will survive more then maglights.
Battery leakage is partially my fault and partially Duracells, it's a fact of life with alkaline batteries, not with maglights, and I was simply pointing out that 14500s did not suffer from that problem.
Black Rose
Flashlight Enthusiast
That's an interesting analogy and one I can relate to.
We recently brought in a consultant to assist with our workload.
He noticed the watch I was wearing and commented that he hadn't seen one like it in ages.
The watch in question is a Timex Ironman from the pre Indiglo days. I bought it new in 1991.
johnny3073
Newly Enlightened
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2008
- Messages
- 40
Salt & pepper, or can your lights function with broken bulbs and leaking batteries??
The reason you will have no bulb failure in your K-106 is because it's an LED light and it doesn't have a bulb. Keep "drop testing" your DX light and it will suffer the same effect in time. Incandescent bulb breakage is an incandescent bulb weakness, and has nothing to do with any flashlight...not even the evil MagLite.
The thread topic is "Why the maglite hate?", not "Why is your ____ light better than a maglite?". I'm truly glad you are happy with your favorite light. I also have lights that I consider superior to Maglite's design. It just doesn't mean that I "hate" them like many others do.
Before I started getting into better flashlights I dropped several 2D's. I dont think 1 filament got broken, however the switches were damaged. I had one I could shake and it would turn on and off. I got a replacement and right out of the packaging it didnt work. That replacement for the replacment had a **** poor spring that punctured a cell. In one summer I went though 4. I bothered to spend the cash on the mag led upgrades only to find out they still had no output. For the average consumer mags may be acceptable as is but for many industial appications and us flashohlics mags are out dated.
joshconsulting
Enlightened
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2009
- Messages
- 640
johnny3073 said:
Are you denying that the incandescent bulbs break easily, or agreeing with me that the newer LEDs solve the problem while it remains in the still-common older ones? I am simply making a point that for the same price as a Maglight, you can obtain a light of a different brand that is superior in essentially every way.joshconsulting said:
johnny3073 said:
Again, I don't understand - are you saying that Maglights don't have issues with leaking batteries? My argument is that Maglights retain this problem, while newer lights based on a different battery design do not - hence why I dislike maglights.joshconsulting said:
I am well aware of this. My point is that the old maglights, still bought and used frequently today have problems that do not exist in LED lights. I've seen at least a dozen people with maglights, and only 2 had LEDs, but most had replaced the incandescant bulb at least once. There's a reason my local hardware store still has a good stock of replacement bulbs - the incandescent design still remains popular, especially for minimags - the incandescents are sold as frequently or more so then the LED in my area, people simply don't understand the difference. I've seen 3 minimags given away as Christmas presents, all incandescents.
The simple fact that maglight continues to market and sell decades old inferior designs to people not educated enough to know the difference makes me dislike them as a company. From a business standpoint, it makes sense - people are used to the bulbs breaking on occasion, so they aren't likely to complain or dislike the lights for it, and I'm sure Maglight does a decent buisness selling bulbs on the side. But there's no two ways about it - these problems make the lights far inferior to newer and better-designed similarly priced lights not carrying the maglight name.
The thread topic is "Why the maglight hate?", not "Why do you hate maglites?" I don't personally hate them. I simply find that they offer a poor value in light of their inferior design and comparable price to a far superior 'current-gen' light. I can see how that, in addition to their underhanded buisness practices, could cause some to hate them.
I've personally bought and own several maglights which have seen occasional use, and they do a fair job. Most were received or given as gifts; those who don't know any better appreciate them.
But there's no mistaking the fact that they are exploiting the ignorance of the general public in the area of flashlights to sell an inferior product at a higher price point, with the end result being an undesirable flashlight. That is why I dislike them as a company.
I agree, I don't 'hate' them - it's a capatilist society, and they are welcome to turn a profit as best they see fit. But I don't find their offerings attractive, and few people would if they were aware of more appealing lights out there. Unfortunately, maglight's stranglehold on the mid to low end consumer light market has stifled competition, resulting in millions of people owning an inferior, overpriced product. Again, that is why I and others dislike them.
johnny3073
Newly Enlightened
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2008
- Messages
- 40
Statements like: "not educated" and "ignorant" consumers smack of an elitest arrogance that out shines any instrument of illumination, including the Sun.
MagLite markets their product to regular people (99.9% of the population) that want exactly what they can deliver. A simple utility tool that will illuminate.
*Made in the USA - check
*No BS USA Lifetime Warranty - check
*Very easy to obtain replacement parts - check
*Available for immediate on-site purchase 24/7/365 - check
*Runs on simple alkalines available ANYWHERE - check
*Rugged, reliable, time tested & proven - check
*Very reasonable cost - check
MagLite doesn't manufacture or market to flashaholics. They never have, and they never will. Why? Because it's not their business model. MagLite controls their piece of the market because they give their customers what they want, not what you think people need.
People aren't uneducated, ignorant, or what ever else you care to call them just because they look for something very different in a light than you.
If you think you can establish a better company and produce a better product, there's certainly no one standing in your way. After you put MagLite out of business, I'll even be one of your customers.
joshconsulting
Enlightened
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2009
- Messages
- 640
I'm sorry you misinterpreted me. My point, quite simply, is that the general American public knows (and cares) considerably less then the average CPFer on the subject of flashlights.
I have not yet found a person who doesn't appreciate a tool more effective in every way then the one it replaces. A flashlight superior in virtually every way will always win in a direct comparison. My point is that the public WOULD care about, say, 200 lummens vs. 40, or 2 hours of runtime vs. 20 - they simply haven't bothered learning about better tools, as they may not be aware of their existence or simply find the research not worth the effort. Maglight has made a business catering to people apathetic to the quality and usefulness of their flashlights, making them widely-used by the vast majority, who don't particularly care, and widely-disliked by the small minority that do care (AKA CPF).
Sadly, most people would prefer to save money for themselves rather then slighting benefiting the national as a whole. There are a few who are willing to pay the high markup for 'made in the usa', but if there is a clear choice between an inferior USA made product and a superior foreign made, people will generally make the decision to benefit themselves at a small cost to our economy. See "tragedy of the commons" for a more detailed argument.
A nice offer, but more valuable for products that break more often. I expect a flashlight not to break to the point that it requires repair; if it does, there is something very wrong with it. If the problem is even slightly widespread, I would not consider buying that light. The failure rate on lights is low, and many manufactures outside of the US, especially CPF dealers, will replace or repair lights at no cost besides shipping. DX is slightly tricky to get a refund out of due to the long shipping delay and language barrier, but it is entirely possible. This is somewhat negotiated by the far lower cost of DX lights.
Again, this falls under the 'this should be reliable enough to not have to replace' part. Maglight supplies replacement bulbs, which are unessesary for LED lights; for almost any other part, you must request a replacement, just like any other foreign based company. Maglights replacement may arrive a bit faster then one shipped from HK, but there are many US dealers for non-maglights willing to send replacement parts quickly, no questions asked, with faster service and shipping then Maglight.
Agreed. One of the biggest reasons Maglight has become so popular. A retail outlet provides a great place for an instant gratification buy. But some quality third party lights have been moving in alongside maglights in retail store, so this may not last forever. Additionally, the internet is rapidly becoming the commerce method of choice while outlet stores are facing dwindling sales, so more people are used to the order-then-wait-a-few-days drill - again driving sales of 3rd party products.
So does my K-106, and a whole host of 3rd party lights. Alkalines are an option, but so are the superior rechargeables. I have yet to find myself in a pinch requiring days of illumination that would require it. In the space and size of a single set of 4D batteries for a Maglight that would run for a day at most, the K-106 could host enough spare 14500s or even alkalines to run for weeks.
See my previous statements. Newer, better designed lights have proven to be more rugged, more reliable, and proven just as effectively - there's only so many man-hours that can be put into using a flashlight with a low failure rate before it becomes statistically meaningless.
'Reasonable' is a relative term. Why pay $30 for a Maglight when a $13 light will do a much better job? There are many lights comparable to the Maglight that are undeniably superior.
As mentioned above, maglight is popular because most people don't bother learning about flashlights. They don't want to spend a few days researching an obscure flashlight that will fit their needs exactly. Maglight presents a 'one size fits all' option, and consumers simply aren't aware that there are far better choices out there. Regardless of the way you describe it, be it ignorant, uneducated, or uncaring, the average consumer knows very little about flashlights. Here on CPF, we are aware of the choices and what will suit us, and that realization has opened our eyes to the ways Maglights are inferior.
I know this has been quoted before, but I want to touch on a different point. I very much doubt that any significant portion of Maglight purchasers have put effort into researching flashlights for their specific needs and picked Maglight based on an overall decision about cost, size, weight, durability, and other factors that they desire.
The hidden argument here seems to be about the products themselves; do you believe maglights generally inferior to similarly priced lights of other brands? If so, anyone purchasing them is buying them as a product of misinformation - a lack of awareness about better choices available. It's a simple, irrefutable conclusion; no argument necessary. If you do indeed believe that Maglights are generally superior to all other lights in their price range, then that is an entirely separate argument, and one that has room for debate. Judging by the general sentiment on CPF (as addressed in this topic) about Maglight, it would seem that many who have spent more time and effort them I researching have also come to the conclusion that maglight does not offer the best value for the average consumer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
I don't see how my personal ability to produce a flashlight relates to this subject in any way. My point is that Maglight has become a successful company because of smart business decisions, not because of a superior flashlight. For those of us on CPF who have actively researched, their product is considered inferior - yet we are a small enough minority that Maglight can continue to rely on the average consumer who does not know better. This propagates a general dislike for Maglight on these forums, a dislike that appears to be the opinion of the majority.
Last edited:
JaguarDave-in-Oz
Enlightened
and you base this generality on the fact that thirty or forty dislikers have commented negatively on them in this thread. Thirty or forty out of how many thousand members who haven't commented?
Squeaky wheels may squeak loudly but they do not necessarily constitute the majority of wheels.........................
Last edited:
Sums it up for me.
I don't recall ever reading anywhere on this forum anyone ever suggesting the use of a standard Maglite. They are terrible.
I am always surprised when people say they are good value or durable. Plastic lens, plastic reflector, plastic switch, pretty thin body, incan bulb. All seems like the opposite of durable to me. Cheap? yes maybe but for what you get they have to be.
Like most on here, I would not dream of having a standard Mag.
Don't give them credit for selling huge numbers either, lots of sh*t sells in large volume, it doesn't mean it is any good.
Craig.
McAllan
Enlightened
Here's my non-American point of view on this topic.
I long time ago Mag-Lites were the Rolex of flashlights. But since then as the eons passed they've kept resting on the laurels except for the price tag (outside US many US things tends to be quite expensive).
Then suddenly the LED technology went rocketing and what did they do? Come out with halfhearted solutions. While mechanically mostly great (except my wish for HA-III finish) it's like they only made it a half home-run. I remember how disappointed I was when I bought the AA minimag LED. Package claiming 3 watt LED and only putting out a rather dim blue-white beam. No surprise really because it was not even drawing 1 w from fresh batteries (which means even less goes to the LED). And I can understand why. The LED chosen might very well be capable of drawing 3 w but the way the light was built it would then not receive the required cooling.
Here where I live in the last year or two Fenix has really got some serious attention - not just in flashaholic communities. Where I live you can pay just a little bit more to get say a Fenix LD20 which inj just about in anyway blows away the MM LED much more than the price difference should indicate. A non-flashaholic then buys a Fenix upon recommendation of others and while first they doubt because the small price increase (many people are really price sensitive at first) but in % it's nothing to argue about. They receive it and they're literally stunned by it's performance. So while Mag might not be threatened here yet it's pretty darn close. Time to wake up if they want to be on the train outside of US. Here the Mag are too expensive to be on shelves in every equivalent of a WallMart - here you'll only see Duracell and GP flashlights and the like. And if you want something better you go to an outdoor/military/hobby/that kind of specialty shop or place an order in an internet shop.
The "new" adjustable output MM LED does not seem to have reached the shelves yet so can't comment on those.
But also other lights have come to public attention. Mostly Surefire but also Olight and Leatherman Seracs (though especially the leathermans also seems to suffer from the "US-stuff is expensive outside of US"-syndrome). Led Lenser did have much attention at one time but they too seems to have trouble keeping up with prices and making halfhearted products running on 3 cells without proper drivers while claiming hilarious long runtimes that most people will know is nowhere near truth. Some of their newer products are however quite nice but again price is an issue and it takes something to correct a mediocre reputation.
I long time ago Mag-Lites were the Rolex of flashlights. But since then as the eons passed they've kept resting on the laurels except for the price tag (outside US many US things tends to be quite expensive).
Then suddenly the LED technology went rocketing and what did they do? Come out with halfhearted solutions. While mechanically mostly great (except my wish for HA-III finish) it's like they only made it a half home-run. I remember how disappointed I was when I bought the AA minimag LED. Package claiming 3 watt LED and only putting out a rather dim blue-white beam. No surprise really because it was not even drawing 1 w from fresh batteries (which means even less goes to the LED). And I can understand why. The LED chosen might very well be capable of drawing 3 w but the way the light was built it would then not receive the required cooling.
Here where I live in the last year or two Fenix has really got some serious attention - not just in flashaholic communities. Where I live you can pay just a little bit more to get say a Fenix LD20 which inj just about in anyway blows away the MM LED much more than the price difference should indicate. A non-flashaholic then buys a Fenix upon recommendation of others and while first they doubt because the small price increase (many people are really price sensitive at first) but in % it's nothing to argue about. They receive it and they're literally stunned by it's performance. So while Mag might not be threatened here yet it's pretty darn close. Time to wake up if they want to be on the train outside of US. Here the Mag are too expensive to be on shelves in every equivalent of a WallMart - here you'll only see Duracell and GP flashlights and the like. And if you want something better you go to an outdoor/military/hobby/that kind of specialty shop or place an order in an internet shop.
The "new" adjustable output MM LED does not seem to have reached the shelves yet so can't comment on those.
But also other lights have come to public attention. Mostly Surefire but also Olight and Leatherman Seracs (though especially the leathermans also seems to suffer from the "US-stuff is expensive outside of US"-syndrome). Led Lenser did have much attention at one time but they too seems to have trouble keeping up with prices and making halfhearted products running on 3 cells without proper drivers while claiming hilarious long runtimes that most people will know is nowhere near truth. Some of their newer products are however quite nice but again price is an issue and it takes something to correct a mediocre reputation.
Robocop
Mammoth Killer
Most of us here are looking at Mag from the eyes of very educated flashaholics. We all wish Mag would do this or do that and yet they still offer only an average Luxeon by our standards. Our standards however are not what Mag cares about and honestly I do not blame them. Why should they cater to a very small lot of flashaholics when their main sales come from the average consumer.
Average customers do not know anything of "Heat Sinking" and they care nothing about the newest technology that we all demand from our shared interests here. personally I feel Mag could produce a better Luxeon by simply adding a decent heatsink. I do not think they ever will do so simply because they do not have to do so to keep their main customers happy. Now yes if all of their customers were CPF members then surely they would have to do something different but again we make up a very small part of their sales.
For me I think it is not really hate but frustration for Mag as I want them to do so much more and they keep falling short by my so very high CPF standards. I remember learning they were offering a new Luxeon and for a short time thought it would surely be something nice. Well I was shocked to see that it was a very simple design with nothing really new. yes when judged on the CPF scale their Luxeons are far behind however their incans are pretty decent and have been considered above average by hundreds of thousands of customers for years....they must be doing something right even if we feel they could do so much more.
I keep waiting for a luxeon version of the Solitaire or even a 5mm LED version however doubt it will ever happen. Selfishly this makes me frustrated with Mag and at times I talk poorly about them.....but they are still moving thousands of those crappy Solitaires every day so I guess the joke is on me when it is all said and done.
Average customers do not know anything of "Heat Sinking" and they care nothing about the newest technology that we all demand from our shared interests here. personally I feel Mag could produce a better Luxeon by simply adding a decent heatsink. I do not think they ever will do so simply because they do not have to do so to keep their main customers happy. Now yes if all of their customers were CPF members then surely they would have to do something different but again we make up a very small part of their sales.
For me I think it is not really hate but frustration for Mag as I want them to do so much more and they keep falling short by my so very high CPF standards. I remember learning they were offering a new Luxeon and for a short time thought it would surely be something nice. Well I was shocked to see that it was a very simple design with nothing really new. yes when judged on the CPF scale their Luxeons are far behind however their incans are pretty decent and have been considered above average by hundreds of thousands of customers for years....they must be doing something right even if we feel they could do so much more.
I keep waiting for a luxeon version of the Solitaire or even a 5mm LED version however doubt it will ever happen. Selfishly this makes me frustrated with Mag and at times I talk poorly about them.....but they are still moving thousands of those crappy Solitaires every day so I guess the joke is on me when it is all said and done.
RedForest UK
Flashlight Enthusiast
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2009
- Messages
- 1,365
I don't 'hate' maglites. I just find it annoying that most non-flashaholic people seem to always think that they are the best option available anywhere, when that simply isn't the case anymore.
This just gets on my nerves, when people buy something thinking it's the best when if theyd looked a bit harder then they couldve had something so much better.. :banghead:
This just gets on my nerves, when people buy something thinking it's the best when if theyd looked a bit harder then they couldve had something so much better.. :banghead:
I am confused by your post. The person you responded to put forward a cogent argument in a polite manner. You responded by accusing him of abuse. :huh: Looks to me as if the shoe is on the other foot.
Last edited:
RedForest UK
Flashlight Enthusiast
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2009
- Messages
- 1,365
Hmm.. yeah, i just read that, +1 on leif UK's response, it looks like you tk40 are the '*** hat' :shakehead
- Status
Latest posts
-
-
-
New Fireflylite Flashlights arrived! They are absolutely amazing!- Latest: knucklegary
-
-
-
-
