will surefire die?

[golden_creature]

in ten years will surefire still be around? will it have changed? the reason i ask is that there seem to be an amazing number of quality chineese made torches_ fenix, wolfeyes, etc etc etc. do people think sf still have the edge in quality as i have never held one of these other lights. but i do know that in uk most consumer goods seem to be made in china when preiously they wernt. it goes without saying due to lower production costs imported torches are usually cheaper.g.c.

 

[thiswayup]

Surefire are now inferior in quality when compared to some Chinese products. A Jetbeam MkII is smaller than a Surefire Executive, brighter, has multiple levels, at least as well made physically, runs longer, runs brighter, doesn't have a vulnerable bulb, and has a better quality beam (i.e. it's white).

A Jet MkIIx gives U2-ish performance in the size of Surefire's smallest model... at about the size of their cheapest model. What sane reason could anyone have for buying a Surefire compared to competition like that?

Surefire are already dead. It's just that the corpse might take some time to collapse.

 

[FNG]

The military and law enforcement do not buy chinese products, so no, they will not die.

 

[dougie]

I personally don't think there is a cat in hells chance of Surefire dying. The competition isn't in the same league. Surefire's quality and dealer network is well up to the challenge of looking after the worlds LEO's and military needs without fear of cheap Chinese lights denting its' sales. What can never be ruled out is Surefire being taken over or loosing its' top engineers to other employers? There is now a global market for high end lights and other manufacturers have raised the bar with lights such as the Gladius being a good example. Money talks and sometimes people bite at the chance of seeing their salary being dramatically increased simply by changing employers. If anything will increase the risk of change at Surefire it will be more likely to be a takeover than a shrinking market.

Doug

 

[InfidelCastro]

I read this thread, then I read the Jetbeam CE thread about a guy buying three and getting one good one and numerous other similar complaints. And yet everyone pretends to be happy just to get the latest emitter, (crappy beam and all) in a barely functioning, ludicrous UI having, already falling apart light. I go to the "open letter to Sure-Fire" thread, and then I see people complaining about the quality of Fenix lights.

Give me a break.

I guess people will buy what makes them happy, sloppy threads and all.

 

[not2bright]

I have to wonder if those comparing the physical quality of Chinese flashlights to that of Surefire (or some other top brands) actually own or have really inspected these products.

I'll be the first to say that the Surefire price tag is inflated, and that there are some small, innovative lights coming in to the market place. That said, other than some custom, low production lights, Surefire's construction is the "gold" standard.

 

[Oddjob]

I think you can draw some parallels with other things such as the auto and electronics industries. Look at Japanese cars and electonics 30-40 years. They were probably not highly regarded when first introduced to the North American Market but now they are right up there with any other manufacturers in the world. I'm not saying that this is going to happen to Surefire but history has shown that eventually other countries manufacturers can compete on the same level.

 

[blake711]

I have to wonder if those comparing the physical quality of Chinese flashlights to that of Surefire (or some other top brands) actually own or have really inspected these products.

I'll be the first to say that the Surefire price tag is inflated, and that there are some small, innovative lights coming in to the market place. That said, other than some custom, low production lights, Surefire's construction is the "gold" standard.

Hey I was gonna say that.. You nailed it on the head. While their are some good chinese lights. Surefires are EXCELLENT. You have to many Leos and military folks that have used and trusted surefire far to long to put their lives in the hands of a light that is made in a sweatshop for 12 cents a day.

 

[Windscale]

I am sure SF will not die (that easily). They will probably be bought out by some foreign companies!!! just like what's been happening to many US businesses.

 

[EricMack]

Surefire are already dead. It's just that the corpse might take some time to collapse.

 

[WAVE_PARTICLE]

Also, I don't think the Chinese "brands" offer a lifetime guarantee of their products. I know in Hong Kong, there's no such thing as "refund" or "exchange" in the retail market. I once tried to do an exchange I got laughed at. Then I demanded a refund and that was when the other customers joined in the laughing.....

But I agree with the above that Surefire's primary bread and butter comes from military and law enforcement contracts with some private sector, large scale bulk orders. These type of customers need a product that the company is willing to stand behind as well the product itself needs to be of a build that can withstand rugged applications.

If you want to answer your own question, answer this: If you were to go to the battlefield, and on the table you see a Surefire L6 and a Fenix L2T, which one will you pick up?

WP

 

[PhotonBoy]

Surefire and other US flashlight manufacturers are too slow to market with new products. I've lost count of the number of new lights that Fenix has introduced in the last year. Their P1D CE blows away almost all LED competitors as well as a lot of highly-regarded incans as far as price/performance is concerned. The pressure is on....

 

[redskins38]

Surefire is the best when it comes to quality. Fenix and jetbeam are nice lights with good quality for the price but when compared with a surefire they are not anything amazing.

 

[WAVE_PARTICLE]

Oh and one thing some of you guys missed out on is the fact that Surefire has the production scale to satisfy all the large and lucrative contracts, which is a huge one-up if you want the big money.

I don't believe Surefire is slow with new products. They have a dedicated R&D group who have lights with CREEs and Seouls in them already. And one light with infinite brightness levels. Heck, we haven't even had a glimpse of the proto's they have locked up.

Anyways, when you are in the big league, you don't just throw new technology together and get it out in the market right away. The products need to be tested in a lab and then field tested to ensure the new light meets minimum quality standards.

Surefire's customers expect nothing less than this.

WP

 

[luigi]

It only takes a Cree Led, a body for a battery and a circuit to build a P1DCE I wonder what would have happened had surefire released a light with those characteristics, maybe with the infinite brightness interface as in the Titan.
I think it would have been "the light" everybody here will be jumping to get even at say $120 when the P1DCE is $70.

What is my conclusion from this? I have no idea...

Luigi

 

[ABTOMAT]

Anyone who thinks Surefire is going away doesn't know how reality works, or is trying to push a competing product. The reason SF isn't popping out new models every week with the latest in-fashion parts is simple. It's hard and expensive for a "real" company to go through the R&D, production line changes, parts sourcing, marketing, and shipping steps. Before releasing a new product you have to be absolutely, 100% sure that it's totally reliable (in SF's case since lives might rely on it), can be mass-produced without problems, that you'll be able to get components, and most importantly that you'll be able to sell enough to make money. If these factors can't be almost assured then you don't sell it to the public. I think they dropped the ball on the U2 design and that probably cost them a lot in customer service and sales.

Think about Mag Instrument for a minute. They're still around and they come out with fewer new products than any premium flashlight maker. They took forever (too long, really) to come out with an LED light because they couldn't shift such a massive manufacturing operation around market fads. They needed to be sure they had everything lined up correctly for probably 5 years into the future in order to make it worth while.

Speaking of Mag, they come out with a new product around every 6-8 years on average, and they have very little "enthusiast" respect, and they're doing pretty well for themselves. Surefire is so much better, a more agile company, and they make a lot of things no one else does or will any time soon. They also have much better quality and support than the Chinese no-name outfits. They're here to stay.

One thing I don't like about SF, though, is that they seem to put an inordinate amount of effort into making one-off prototypes that have no hope of getting produced, or will have such a limited interest (like the Titan), instead of improving their core product line (see U2 switch) and lowering prices. I'm sure the original R&D cost for a 6P was covered years ago and there're only pennies worth of machining in that thing.

 

[ScooterBug]

since i started reading and then joining CPF i have gotten a lot of new lights. but when i head out the door for work it is a SUREFIRE i carry. i don't think they are going anywhere for a long time.

 

[Loomy]

That which is neither living nor dead cannot die

 

[Blindasabat]

Surefire and other US flashlight manufacturers are too slow to market with new products. I've lost count of the number of new lights that Fenix has introduced in the last year. Their P1D CE blows away almost all LED competitors as well as a lot of highly-regarded incans as far as price/performance is concerned. The pressure is on....

Others have a different set of priorities...

If you want to answer your own question, answer this: If you were to go to the battlefield, and on the table you see a Surefire L6 and a Fenix L2T, which one will you pick up?

Excellent point. That is why the rest are hobbyist lights - for CPF members that think the brightest and trickiest modes make it the 'best' or constitute 'quality.' Quality is dependability. Quality is being able to rely on it working as you expect in a life threatening moment.

I'll take the L6 100% of the time. Even after a HUMMVEE runs it over.

Anyways, when you are in the big league, you don't just throw new technology together and get it out in the market right away. The products need to be tested in a lab and then field tested to ensure the new light meets minimum quality standards.

Exactly why it takes SF "so long" to get products out. They were one of the first to implement Luxeons (L1) and beside the Chinese (who seem to design by guesstimation, without testing), seem to be first up with Cree this year.

Just like ScooterBug, I also have a lot of lights accumulated through figuring out what I want, trying something new, and eventually figuring out what I want. I carry a Fenix or Jil to work (engineer) because they are small and (relatively) cheap so I won't care if they get damaged or lost, but what do I rely on when I go way out in the wilderness camping? The Jil is a back-up, but I take my SF A2 or ML1, HDS, and FireFly. The A2 and L1 have unique combination of toughness, quality (actual quality), innovative design, and great operation (one switch, one press, two levels!), not found on any lights besides other Surefires.

 

[yellow]

just a bunch of jerks lurking around in some flashlight forum and knowing there are (small production number) better lights around and thus buying these, won't harm any enterprise this large.
There is still their "domestic" military/lwa enforcement market and all the rest of the unaware public.

Then, when there REALLY are some inventions that are a must (Cree, SSC, Multilevel):
when coming out some years later with a design not incorporating design flaws the previous inventers (whose lights we flashaholics already use for quite some time) encountered and solved, the mass market will still be surprised about this great maker
(think of the magleds, which still use primary design flaws but are considered great, but please just as a point to think of. The pro/cons to the mm-Led have already been typed about in some other treads)

--> No Way Surefire will go down. Their overall quality is too good.