Sold/Expired Katokichi Ichishiki-B, KI-B discussion II

*Notice* - This is the second attempt at initiating an effort for the civil discussion of the topic. Previous efforts, which have been a result of non-compliance on the part of participants, have attempted to grant the opportunity to discuss a topic worthy and necessary. Those efforts, with a degree of tolerance, have failed.

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Whatever.


While I love my 2 KI lights the very high price of this light will prevent me from purchasing this light. I would consider this possibly if the light was based on the newer K2 technology. From my point of view this light is almost a step backwards. I like the idea of 3 different bodies, that is great but a 1 watt s bin emitter? Not the direction I want to go in as a previous KI investor. I have one SE and one Tactical. Love them both and will hang on to them. The KI-B will have to wait to get my cash.

Just my 2 cents worth.
Yaesumofo

I have great respect for you Yaesumofo but in this case, I feel that MJ's past work just demands a bit of additional support. I for one, am "in" and I'm sure I will not be disappointed. I have a number of pieces of MJ's work including two KIs and three SFIIIs. I'm gonna take a sure bet on this one.



Karlthev

Well, I know for a fact that the KI-B does not use the "cheap" IMS reflector, which is truly inexpensive, but actually not that bad a performer for the price. The KI-B will have a primo reflector, modified to fit, once again. Details will most likely be provided to those who signed up before too long. And I think there may be some good news on the choice of LED also. Keeping my fingers crossed.

The difference between a S-Bin 1W Luxeon and K2 is that the K2 is still vaporware. K2s have not been released to general production, and the engineering samples aren't even close to meeting the spec sheets. I've gathered this after talking to a number of folks with K2 engineering samples.

A S-bin 1W unit represents a real advance in Luxeon efficieincy. It used to take 700mA to get S flux, now you can it from 350mA - at lower Vf too, since Vf rises with current.

Hi PhotonFanatic,

I hate to disagree on you with this, but:

TrueBlue said:

KI-B will have a mineral glass window, HA natural body, Chem-coat (is that the right word?) interior, a modified SO, uhh, something reflector, three battery tubes and a converter similar to the pioneering SFIII Mc38-V.

Click to expand...

So it looks like the KI-B will be using a "cheap" IMS reflector.

Unfortunately, there is very little in the way of details about this light and questions continue to go unanswered. I just wish we could get some decent, easily supplied answers before plopping down over three hundred dollars on a light.

For example.. Is it a true current controlled buck/boost solution? If not, will running the light on a primary CR123a mean that the light is much dimmer than when running on a Li-Ion R123? Being able to use multiple battery configurations is a definite plus, but the expectation is that it will run at the same current supply with those different batteries. However, a much dimmer primary cell configuration would explain the 9-10 hour runtime with 1xCR123a.

Considering that Energizer lists the capacity of a standard CR123a as 1500mAh, it could supply 375mA for exactly 4 hours. But for 9-10 hours of runtime from a CR123a, the current supplied by the battery must be ~158mA. Of course, this is just the battery supply current and not the current supplied to a white Luxeon, which would likely be a bit lower if a boost circuit is involved.

So is the light actually controlling the current at a constant 375mA to the emitter and the runtime figures given are just wildly inaccurate or does the current to the LED drop when using primary cells?

This is just basic information that I would like to know before paying such a large amount of money for something that I may end up using in a tactical situation.

pb

idleprocess said:

A S-bin 1W unit represents a real advance in Luxeon efficieincy. It used to take 700mA to get S flux, now you can it from 350mA - at lower Vf too, since Vf rises with current.

Click to expand...

Now I think we are getting somewhere. I am already in on this light, even before any graphs, detailed analysis, or third party data, simply because I have complete confidence in ARCmania's vision and execution thereof, and this from nothing else than my satisfaction with the other lights of his I am fortunate to own.

Do I expect this light with the Lux I to be blindingly bright? No. Do I think the runtimes may be optimistic? Maybe. But as far as an all around efficient, sufficiently bright for my needs, extremely long runtime, and a versatile, perfectly crafted light, I think it will exceed my expectations.

Do I know enough about convertors to conjecture how the runtimes might be accomplished with the given emitter? No. But since nobody but Mike really knows at this point, I for one am willing to give his talent the benefit of my doubt, IMO he deserves this at the least.

Would I, if I were Mike, feel inclined to answer all the questions posed lately while trying to build a large number of labor intensive lights and maintain the level of quality expected in a very short time frame? No.

I cannot say I have the pleasure (or displeasure) of knowing Mike personally. However I do know that his lights are well received in other parts of the world. From what I gather about him from recent history here at the CPF, he does not strike me as one to alter his perceived personality in order to make one more sale. I think he is doing us a service by offering his lights here, for if it were not here, I would not have the opportunity to purchase them.

If you consider yourself in the same league of knowledge and talent as Mike, I can understand all the specific questions, but I for one do not. He is way out of my league and as such I have put my trust in him for now. If I am ever disappointed or feel misled by one of his purchases, that will most certainly change.

Let's let the light arrive and then all the answers will literally be in hand. If at that time they are still available, the truly sophisticated buyers can decide if it is worth their money then.

pbarrette said:

Hi PhotonFanatic,

I hate to disagree on you with this, but:



So it looks like the KI-B will be using a "cheap" IMS reflector.

Unfortunately, there is very little in the way of details about this light and questions continue to go unanswered. I just wish we could get some decent, easily supplied answers before plopping down over three hundred dollars on a light.

For example.. Is it a true current controlled buck/boost solution? If not, will running the light on a primary CR123a mean that the light is much dimmer than when running on a Li-Ion R123? Being able to use multiple battery configurations is a definite plus, but the expectation is that it will run at the same current supply with those different batteries. However, a much dimmer primary cell configuration would explain the 9-10 hour runtime with 1xCR123a.

Considering that Energizer lists the capacity of a standard CR123a as 1500mAh, it could supply 375mA for exactly 4 hours. But for 9-10 hours of runtime from a CR123a, the current supplied by the battery must be ~158mA. Of course, this is just the battery supply current and not the current supplied to a white Luxeon, which would likely be a bit lower if a boost circuit is involved.

So is the light actually controlling the current at a constant 375mA to the emitter and the runtime figures given are just wildly inaccurate or does the current to the LED drop when using primary cells?

This is just basic information that I would like to know before paying such a large amount of money for something that I may end up using in a tactical situation.

pb

Click to expand...

Does anyone have any information on these items yet?

Have any of the standard reviewers reviewed and tested this light yet?

Zepplin, nobody is faulting the workmanship of the mechancial aspect. Of course, the mechanical aspect is just one part of the light. Some folks would just like more information on the rest of the light. Though...

The claimed 375mA of current to the LED itself- for 10 hours, is simply impossible for a single CR123A to do. Doesn't matter what circuit you have, you just cannot get that out of a single CR123A. Thats why I asked for runtime plots from one of the standard reviewers, especially for a light of this price. You won't get that sort of power out of a single rechargeable 123 either.

Fellas like Roy and Craig do a great job of keeping the flashlight makers/modders honest, with the outstanding reviews they do.

NewBie said:

Fellas like Roy and Craig do a great job of keeping the flashlight makers/modders honest, with the outstanding reviews they do.

Click to expand...

Yes indeed. How I wish they were cloned so we could get more reviews of more lights from them.

There are many different types of buyers here at CPF as there are individuals and personalities. Not everyone buys for the same or even similar reasons. I for one am not a purely technically oriented purchaser, though I would like to know about technical issues. Nor do I ever expect to be in harm's way, or rely on a flashlight in a life-or-death situation. However, that does not stop me from buying them. Case in point: yesterday I was out all night plowing snow in my dually that has every imaginable LED light in unimaginable places. And yet I took a flashlight, a back up, and one for good measure. I didn't use any, but I felt good.

But, some need all the technical data before purchasing a light. I can guarantee tha the answers will be coming, no later than the arrival of the first KI-B, which is not that far off I hope. Perhaps these unaswered questions are hurting Mike's sales. Then it is in his best interest to answer promptly, or lose sales. If the light is grossly misrepresented, then that is an issue between the actual purchaser of the light, and the light maker. In that respect I certainly hope not to have an issue with Mike.

I'll be happy to test mine when I get it, if you tell me what you want tested and how it quantified (I don't have any fancy equip though).

Patience, my friends, is the serene solution.

Here is a question for MJ:

why are you so reluctant to post specs?

I assume it's your circuit, so it should be easy to estimate the specs from the specs of your part selection. It should be even more easier to say if it's current or not current regulated. Since that is one of most important functions of the circuit.

Hmmm...perhaps this is all just a sophisticated, well-crafted publicity stunt - sort of like the new model car shrouded in secrecy until a grand unveiling.

I am certainly on the edge of my seat awaiting breaking news and/or the arrival of my light. I haven't had this much fun anticipating a new light is quite some time.

At any rate we can't let the excitement get the best of us...(Empath is watching).

pokkuhlag said:

I assume it's your circuit, so it should be easy to estimate the specs from the specs of your part selection. It should be even more easier to say if it's current or not current regulated. Since that is one of most important functions of the circuit.

Click to expand...

We already have the estimates and nobody could figure out how they are possible. That's why we're asking for some hard data but questions regarding this topic have always been totally ignored.

Where are people getting 10 hour runtimes? I have not seen ArcMania or TrueBlue post such claims. Maybe you should reread TrueBlue's first post again...slowly.

I don't think it is possible for ArcMania to estimate the runtime from "the specs of your part selection". Mike's circuits are not off-the-shelf from Radio Shack. LOL! Some of the components are hand made. No one else can get them. It is most likely impossible to estimate an average runtime from lights or components that may not be assembled as yet. Especially, since there may be some variation in the hand made components that Mike acquires.

Read the first post again. It states that a runtime graph will be provided as the project advances. Maybe Mike is waiting until assembling a larger batch to test for a set of average value ranges. The larger the number sampled, the more accurate the average will be. This is mathematical fact.

Some of you guys have been around here long enough to be cognizant of the variation from light to light and component to component - even from the largest light manufacturers.

But, you that will be ordering, will not be getting some mass-produced "me too" light. This will be a light that has a high amount of hands on craftsmanship. Can't get that at your local Five & Dime store.

FWIW, I dropped my KI LE from the height of 20 feet onto concrete. There is a small 0.5 mm dent near the bezel. The LED still works like the first time I turned it on. Will say...a fenix light endure the same?

I think it unfair that the same people always trash Mike's sales. It is not criticism from an inferior circuit. Me thinks it is envy of Mike's skill that several here will never attain. So, why not just have the guts to post what you really think - instead of the lies? It happens everytime Mike & Kato-san attempt to bring something to CPF that is...wonderful.
Edit: Discuss the topic; not the members - Empath

This is Mike's & Kato-san's THIRD light for CPF. Some have been hyping vaporware since the KI LE.

We will be essentially getting THREE LIGHTS for $103 each!

"Hype"? Mike is one person that I have not seen "hyping" a light. Every KI that I own outperforms any perceived "hype" once in the hand and in the illuminated darkness.

Another selling point for the new KI buyers - the ones that I have seen being resold command a premium. Didn't the KI-T's fetch $400-$500 on Ebay?

This is a chance to own a finely crafted light that is seldom seen in our age of mass produced overseas junk from some larger countries.

So, is it hype(show me a quote) or a clinical case of flashlight-craftsmanship-skills envy?

Fin

Finbar said:

Where are people getting 10 hour runtimes? I have not seen ArcMania or TrueBlue post such claims. Maybe you should reread TrueBlue's first post again...slowly.
Fin

Click to expand...

TrueBlue said:

Originally Posted by TrueBlue
The Mc38-V buyers are pioneers. The converters in the lights are very similar to the converters in a new light that has just passed the prototype stage and are being made now. Grift made Mike show 'the cards in his hand' by his innocent request for a Lux V option in the SFIII Mc38.

FYI…the new light is known as KI-B. The debut pictures are below. KI-B, originally called "The Sapporo Project", is the shortened from the name Katokichi Ichishiki-BabyBigBrother. The KI-B is a larger version of the KI light. It is built to hold different tube extensions for more battery choices. The light will have tube extensions to hold 1 x CR123A, 2 x CR123A and a single AA tube. The light will run a Lux I, SW0H bin, emitter at 375mA. KI-B can use primary and 1 x RCR123A, 2 x RCR123A plus a 14500 battery. The constant-brightness run time of the KI-B is still being tested. Expect approximately 4 to 4 1/2 hours on an alkaline battery, 9 to 10 hours on a CR123A battery and 18 to 20 hours on 2 x CR123A batteries.

Click to expand...

Right there Finbar, let me carefully break it out for you:

"The light will run a Lux I, SW0H bin, emitter at 375mA."

"Expect approximately"
- "4 to 4 1/2 hours on an alkaline battery"
- "9 to 10 hours on a CR123A battery"
- "18 to 20 hours on 2 x CR123A batteries."

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=100891

Finbar said:

Where are people getting 10 hour runtimes? I have not seen ArcMania or TrueBlue post such claims. Maybe you should reread TrueBlue's first post again...slowly.

Click to expand...

For some reason, it was posted in the SF3 sales thread. It probably wasn't posted again because it had been questioned numerous times in that thread, the KI-B sales thread, and the 1st KI-B discussion thread.

I don't think it is possible for ArcMania to estimate the runtime from "the specs of your part selection". Mike's circuits are not off-the-shelf from Radio Shack. LOL! Some of the components are hand made. No one else can get them. It is most likely impossible to estimate an average runtime from lights or components that may not be assembled as yet. Especially, since there may be some variation in the hand made components that Mike acquires.

Read the first post again. It states that a runtime graph will be provided as the project advances. Maybe Mike is waiting until assembling a larger batch to test for a set of average value ranges. The larger the number sampled, the more accurate the average will be. This is mathematical fact.

Click to expand...

When has mike or anyone ever posted a runtime graph for any of his lights? It's always been estimates that have NEVER lived up to claimed specs whether in runtime or regulation. This has been proven by the modders and reviewers after they got the light. I look forward to the runtime graph. Like I said before, I don't mind being proven wrong as everyone here benefits from any information provided as a result of our efforts to seek the truth.

FWIW, I dropped my KI LE from the height of 20 feet onto concrete. There is a small 0.5 mm dent near the bezel. The LED still works like the first time I turned it on. Will say...a fenix light endure the same?

Click to expand...

You need to read more around here. It's funny that you should mention that. A fenix survived a 17 story fall in an elevator shaft a couple of months ago.

I think it unfair that the same people always trash Mike's sales. It is not criticism from an inferior circuit. Me thinks it is envy of Mike's skill that several here will never attain. So, why not just have the guts to post what you really think - instead of the lies? It happens everytime Mike & Kato-san attempt to bring something to CPF that is...wonderful.

Click to expand...

It's not an inferior circuit. Merely over-hyped and inaccurate specs that the maker refuses to present data to prove otherwise. Can anyone explain why the KI-LE's buck/boost converter runs brighter when using rechargeables? Isn't a buck/boost supposed to maintain a preset brightness regardless of the battery's voltage? Mike probably could but he won't for some reason.

We will be essentially getting THREE LIGHTS for $103 each!

Click to expand...

I would love to see a picture of all 3 lights lit up at the same time when you get them.

I am also curious about the performance of the light on 1 alkaline AA with the board's minimum input voltage of 1.2V.

Another selling point for the new KI buyers - the ones that I have seen being resold command a premium. Didn't the KI-T's fetch $400-$500 on Ebay?

Click to expand...

I believe it was a KI-LE. I'd be willing to bet you could put any of Wayne's converters in there and it would sell just as well plus I'd actually get the runtime and flat regulation expected of it.

Finbar..

Hand made components that affect the runtime? I'm sorry, but could you please show us an example of a handmade electronic component used in any of the past ArcMania lights? I'm quite certain that he isn't hand winding the inductors here, nor is he building the switcher IC's by hand. Likewise, the resistors and capacitors will probably be normal commercially purchased items. Any diodes involved will probably not be hand blown glass tubes with personally inserted semiconductor elements either. Hell, even the circuit boards themselves are fabbed out and done by machine, hence the need for the Gerber files that TrueBlue mentioned.

As far as I am aware, the only hand made parts of this light are the mechanical parts of the flashlight body which are built by Katokichi and seem to be of the highest quality. However, these parts have zero effect on the runtime and zero effect on the current regulation (or lack thereof) of the light.

As I see it, ArcMania has always been reluctant to post the specs of his converters. When directly questioned, avoidance always seems to be the stock response. In fact, most of the hard numbers always seem to come from someone who "heard from Mike that...". Why is it that ArcMania seems to have plenty of time to provide runtime estimates and drive current specifications to others via private email, but seems wholly unable to do so in a public forum where his products are being sold? Perhaps with the hard numbers coming from others with no participation (or corrections) by ArcMania it allows for a certain amount of "plausible deniability"?

Frankly, I think that the KI lights are very well machined and nobody can deny the excellent assembly work. I would love to own a piece with such amazing craftsmanship and I have the monetary means to do so. However, I do not like being lied to, nor misled. So until something changes, I simply cannot convince myself to purchase a light with ArcMania involvement.

pb

All right guys, there is more going on here than I can grasp. I'm sort of feeling like the thread clown right now, and very in the dark about the technical aspects of the light, and the allusions to CPF history before my time. Any effort to lighten the mood has failed miserably.

I have undergone quite an enlightenment about the CPF in these related threads. We have a microcosm of any society here. We have the law, the businesses, the consumers, the teachers, the inquisition, the vigilantes, and the general population. What we don't have are the untouchables - anyone is free to spit in the face of anyone else, which is both good and bad. But it seems we have been seeing more of the bad lately.

Things are slowly coming into focus for me and I've found myself inadvertently in the middle of a battlefield with shots whizzing by, but fortunately not directed at me. Though I do feel somewhat in harm's way.

In all humility I cannot pretend to add to the technical information about this light. What I would like to offer is a last call for civility, mutual respect, and class that so far has been sorely lacking despite two interventions by the moderators. If the intent of these related threads is a discussion of the KI-B, then it is not at all that. It is very one-sided, opinionated, subjective, and too often offensive. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, basis for evaluation, and convictions, however tolerances should be granted to those who share different ones.

I do not think that Mike or TrueBlue's silence so far is unintentional. Nor do I infer it as an admission of "guilt". I prefer to see it as a "no comment", and in this society we should all believe in innocence until proven guilty. In addition, from what I have gathered about Mike, I do not think that the frequency of questions posed will be proportional to the speed of his response. Actually I think it will be the inverse. And in general, it always helps to ask nicely. What veiling might be on some comments and questions is rather thin.

My involvement in this thread is quite simple and quantifiable, $680 sent to Mike for both the Mc38-V and KI-B for which I hope to receive lights of such value. And as stated before, I continue to place my trust in his talent. However, it is admittedly possible that I will receive the guts of a Fenix in a pretty body. And to that I would say to Mike, " Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...", well he wouldn't get a second chance.

But I think we can all agree that is very far-fetched.

So take my comments however you will, and label me how you see fit. I simply would like to make a plea to anyone posting in this thread, and any silent viewers to dig down deep for those feelings of good will and community spirit you had when you were green like me (correction: like I was). A little bit can go a long way.

I'm very much questioning any benefit or positive effect I am having in this thread, and think I should shut my mouth before someone shuts it for me. So have at it guys if you must, for whatever reason. I'm still buying these two lights, at least, from Mike and am willing to wait to make my own decision about their worth irrespective of anyone else's evaluation, opinion, or speculation about the light or the maker.

This is not the CPF I thought I knew, and if this is what I simply failed to see, why don't we all just change it, one by one.

Am I truly standing alone here?

LED Zeppelin,

This is not the CPF I thought I knew, and if this is what I simply failed to see, why don't we all just change it, one by one.

Click to expand...

I'm sorry to say that you simply failed to see it. It seemed that we used to be a happy bunch of people that all enjoyed the same things togther :buddies: . But it seems all that changed with the Mr. Bulk LionCub sales thread. Mostly the same people did the same thing that is happening to this thread. Although the runtime graph request is viable with the stated "estimated" run times with different battery configurations.

It's a shame that the people that are steering this thread in to the ground are the same ones that won't buy one. and seem to do this to people for the fun of it.

gotta love how some people really demonstrate the close knit community of CPF oh wait I got that wrong didn't I.

Doug

Guys, let's keep this thread on topic shall we?
Since when is asking for some answers forbidden? :shrug:

This thread isn't about the participants, the buyers, Mike, nor Trueblue.

Feel free to ask product oriented questions, whether it's critical or praise. If you get an answer, that's great. If you don't get an answer, 'them's the breaks'. The market will undoubtedly be based on the comfort generated by the answers or lack thereof. There are no obligations on anyone's part to answer, nor a right on anyone's part to demand an answer.

Keep the thread on topic.

Please keep in mind, those losing their posting privileges are losing their privileges based strictly on the directives of the first posting of this thread. Your position in any particular "side" of an issue doesn't matter.