Related to "I got into a fight" what would you have done?

Guys when I was in high school, I had a classmate torment me constantly. He was in the same grade by two years older and not a Rhodes scholar and basically got delight in tormenting people. He didn't actually beat me up constantly but would always shove me if he saw me in the hall or give me a book drop or something to that effect. My basic strategy was wimpiness and avoidance as much as I could. If I would have had the guts to stand up to him, I would have gotten my face pounded in to a pump. I saw that happen to another classmate. The only saving grace I had was by the time we got to be seniors (he was 20 by then) he had matured to a point to leave me alone or moved on to other things.

So say you had a son who was a 14 year old freshmen and came up and told you the same story, what would you tell him to do.

I grew up in a sheltered private elementary and middle school, so I was somewhat of an "outsider" when I went to public highschool. Being a specialized highschool, I never experienced bullying the way other people have described, but I have also had my fair share of... let's call them "misunderstandings."

The key is to get respect. There are plenty of ways, some more constructive than others. The important part is that you need to be able to judge a person's reactions. What you've also got to take into account is that people can get vengeful, and very angry. It's exactly like brinkmanship. You don't want to push too hard because of retaliation, and likewise, you don't want to back down either.

- Adapt. Change yourself to suit the environment. Fit in, don't be an outcast or an outsider. Your self-image and confidence is also important. If you're confident in yourself, it's harder to be picked on and pushed around. Make it so that there's nothing to pick on you about. If you're being picked on for being "the smart one," others may perceive it as you and the teacher versus them. Make sure they know you're on their side by not always being the smart-a** in the group. You can try to do this by giving the outward appearance that you're a complete slacker, or making snide comments about subjects in class, and various other things.

- Insult back. Sometimes what will also work here is if someone says something like, "nice glasses, dork," you can respond in several ways that may put you at an advantage -- ignore them, laugh with them, or make a jab back at them, even if it's completely non-PC and against your own beliefs. To someone I consider a "low threat," my response might have been, "thanks, I like your shirt-- you get it at the Salvation Army?" With someone much bigger and stronger than you, the meeker way out is better. For some reason, self-depreciation can work well in situations like this: "yeah, that's why I never look in the mirror," and laugh with them. Using that method, I have managed to make a friendly acquaintance out of a former enemy.

Ever read Ender's Game? Towards the beginning of the book, six-year-old Ender puts down a bully. "Look at his butt [wriggle]. See ya, Worm!" says the bully. Ender later fakes a message from the bully to say, "I love your butt. Let me kiss it. -Bernard [the bully]." Similarly, you can twist the bully's insults to ones that work against him, and if he's with friends, you can embarass him.

- Power. Show them what you're made of. Shove them back, not hard enough to set them off, but enough to show that you're not just going to stand down. Sometimes bullying is merely a power struggle in effort to show who's the better person. Again, there are a few ways to do this besides shoving back.

A more defensive method is to completely ignore the person, making them look like a fool. But being ignored sometimes makes people very angry, especially when they're already up in your face. Don't allow him to rile you up unless you're ready for a major confrontation. If you can't ignore him, keep calm and talk your way out in a rational manner. On the other hand, if you blow your reaction to their insults way out of proportion, and you get up and in his face about it, you may get him to back down. But be prepared to fight if you choose the latter, because you may just cause the confrontation to escalate. Warning: never, ever make specific threats on anyone or their friends. (Example: "Don't make me have to floor you..." is okay. "I'm going to kill you..." is not. Use common sense, don't say anything that can get you in deep doo-doo.)

The most indirect way to gain power is to have "friends in high places," so if you can befriend one or several of his peers who have his respect (doesn't have to be his friend, just someone "big" enough to challenge his judgement).

- Get a reputation. I seem to have gained "ninja" status at my school. Some people have gotten it into their heads that I'm a ninja, and that I'm not to be messed with. I let them think that. I attribute that to my fast reflexes and ruthless mean streak that comes out when people start messing with me. (I don't think I'll get into details.)

- Make yourself popular. You don't have to be one of the "popular" kids, just one well-liked by (almost) everybody and have loyal friends. It's harder to get picked on when you have people on your side. If you get someone angry enough at you, make sure the bully (bullies) can't outnumber you, ever.

Also, don't be afraid to try and get the authorities involved, whether it be teachers, administrators, or even the police. If they can't pin anything on you, you've nothing to fear from authoritative figures.

Machiavelli's The Prince is strangely appropriate here.

Okay! Back to my papers.

geepondy,

PM sent

I was the ultimate non-conformist geek in school and still am. I didn't know how to solve it then and still can't seem to avoid problems with those type of people in the work environment today. But I can tell you what doesn't work. Getiing school authorities involved never worked. They already knew who the bad kids were but never did anything about them because the parents wouldn't back them up. The same parents that produce these bullies also think they can do no wrong. What's worse, if the victim finally gets fed up enough and defends himself, these same teachers will come down on the victim like a ton of bricks.

As for things like trying to fit in or become popular, that's the kind of thing my parents told me. That's nothing more than saying it's the victims fault. Most of the time, the kid is already trying to fit in but it's just not working. It's almost impossible for anyone kept outside of any kind of clique to figure out how to get in. After all, if you knew the answer you would already be in and without being in, how do you find out the rules. It's mostly just trial and error, and if you have a different set of values from the clique, your guesses will almost always be wrong.

If I had a son in this situation, I would have one main piece of advice. Always keep your cool when the bullying is occuring. But whatever you do later for retaliation, make sure to plan it out with a cool head, don't tell anyone, make sure there are no witnesses, and deny everything afterwards.

P.S. - As for Ender's Game, in other situations his actions had to escalate to higher levels before the situation was finally dealt with. In one case, it was necessary for him to beat another so severely he was hospitalized. And in other cases, he killed the individual. I love this book because it's about a nice kid put in situations that he doesn't want to be in but he has the strenth of character to do what's needed without becoming as evil as those he must deal with. His biggest danger is his own guilt over doing what was needed.

"Related to 'I got into a fight' what would you have done?"

Kicked the sh!t out of him long before he got up the nerve to steal anything of mine.

I don't agree with Carrot's option of adaptation. As long as you're not bothering anyone else, they shouldn't bother you. There's absolutely zero reason for you to change yourself just to suit someone else.

PM soon to be sent as well.

Are you Asian?

Being Asian myself, I think most of us are brought up pretty submissive. I was told always to walk away, and step down. I was picked on in high school by a few people, I was bigger than most of them but they were in either in gangs or had their crews and the thought of getting pummeled by a group of dudes always prevented me standing up for myself. I would tell him to choose his battles (don't try to fight an entire gang!), but definitely stand up for himself or he will get punked not only all through high school, but for the rest of his life.

To all our high school CPF members (I know we got a good bunch guys here), don't let anyone step all over you! They will be on you from freshman to senior. Stand up for yourself, stand tall, and be confident in yourself. Bullies only pick on the weak. Don't be weak! They can sense it and so can the girls!

When i was in Primary 6, i hung out with this basketball group, and there were these bunch of Malay soccer folks who always insist on playing on the same court we were and will purposely whack the ball real hard to chase us away. This often resulted in either our ball or their soccer ball being thrown outside the school fence and a few brawls with them. Well, it still happened repeatedly, despite us standing up against them all the time.
Sad thing was, the guy who i always fought with, used to be my good friend in Primary 2.

Bullies should never be allowed their ways.. perhaps standing up against him gets me battered for once, but just in the same instance, i'll make sure to deal just ONE bad blow for him to remember, so he thinks twice next time before engaging the same target. Walking away is a solution, but i think it feels terrible to be disturbed and may affect life in general in school/anywhere.

Imagine not being able to concentrate on studies, social life, hobbies everyday, just for fear of these people. I'd rather settle it once and for all, and carry on proudly from there.

Diesel_Bomber said:

I don't agree with Carrot's option of adaptation. As long as you're not bothering anyone else, they shouldn't bother you. There's absolutely zero reason for you to change yourself just to suit someone else.

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I disagree with your disagreement. Life is about compromises. When there are no better options, sometimes you've just gotta deal. Survival of the fittest. Those who adapt, survive. The problem is that even if "they shouldn't bother you," they are anyway. And adapting will get you further in life, especially in businesses. If you don't adapt to the marketplace, your boss' expectations, or your coworkers, suddenly you'll find yourself without a job or product to sell. Humans didn't get where they are by not adapting.

Hard question! It depends.

At one time, a bloody nose, or an "I give!" would satisfy the needs of honor, and all would go back to playing marbles.

Nowadays, with video games and other stuff, a lot of the real idiots think that life is a series of reincarnations, with more "men" to die, or that a beating that would incapacitate a Tyrannosaur will allow the "hero" to do more impossible things 5 minutes later. Reality is warped! Human bodies are at the same time extremely tough, and terribly fragile.

I have investigated dozens of "hazing" and juvenile "grab ***" incidients, most of which were minor, no worse than I personally experienced when I was growing up. 75% of them should never have seen the light of day, IMHO.

The substantiated abuse cases were different. They really made me angry!

With political correctness and "anger management" being the favored modes of the day, the person who justifiably defends him (herself) is likely the one singled out by the power structure for discipline, because that's the easy way. In cases like that, parents need to exercise their responsibility to raise appropriate hell in the halls of academe.

One parent gained my admiration. The son was about 15, 5'10, 145 lbs, a nice looking kid. Another kid at school took a disliking to him. This other kid was listed as "violent", was about 6'3", and 200 lbs. A braggart, and a bully.

After escalating hostility, the Hulk decided to have a go at the first kid. Only this kid had a skill. He loved boxing, and had been training for Golden Gloves competition. After all the bellowing by the hulk, there were two blows struck, the smaller kid's fist striking the jaw of the other, and the other kid striking the ground. His dad backed him the whole way, against school administrators, and the other kid's parents claiming foul.

It depends on the situation. "A soft answer turneth away wrath." Sometimes. If he can walk away, he should. If he has to run, run. The kid is not alone. Get to an authority figure. By law, eductors are required to do something to prevent a serious situation, when they are made aware of it. But a tattle tale is never something to be.

Courts tend to take a narrow view, though. If it happened on school grounds, and if the administration had notice, and was doing something to avert the incident, it may be seen as sufficient.

At one time, adults would see such situations developing, and most times, intervene. That, nowadays, will most likely lead to an irate parent making excuses for the delinquent.

If he is going to get pounded to a pulp, with no way out, go down fighting. HURT the aggressor(S) if at all possible. Even a slight injury will serve as a deterrent for all but the most sociopathic.

I once investigted a case of "emasculation by blunt testicular trauma". That is burocrat for castration by a hard kick in the balls. It can happen.

Use no weapons, though. Nowadays, that is one sure way to really screw up a young life and a future.

Self defense classes would be a definite recommendation, as a way to provide skills and confidence, and developing social skills, and friends is also a way to provide deterrence.

If it is the police, I have instructed all of my children to comply immediately, do NOT become abusive, no matter what, do anything they are instructed, and we would sort it out later.

I'd rather pay a fine and/or attorney fee than a hospital or funeral bill. Just my $.02, and probably worth just that much. Good luck.

carrot said:

I disagree with your disagreement. Life is about compromises. When there are no better options, sometimes you've just gotta deal. Survival of the fittest. Those who adapt, survive. The problem is that even if "they shouldn't bother you," they are anyway. And adapting will get you further in life, especially in businesses. If you don't adapt to the marketplace, your boss' expectations, or your coworkers, suddenly you'll find yourself without a job or product to sell. Humans didn't get where they are by not adapting.

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Life is also about knowing where and, more importantly, where not to compromise. Everyone has a different opinion and what's best for everyone differs. I agree that compromise in the business world, where the whole point is to make people like you enough to give you their money, is not only the best idea but the only idea. The school yard, however, is different and it's my opinion that a good dose of don't-f*ck-with-me-ness goes a long way. You yourself referred to people leaving you alone in part because of a ruthless mean streak you have that comes out when provoked. Heh, the business world isn't so different after all. :touche:


Cheers. :buddies:

Diesel_Bomber said:

Life is also about knowing where and, more importantly, where not to compromise. Everyone has a different opinion and what's best for everyone differs. I agree that compromise in the business world, where the whole point is to make people like you enough to give you their money, is not only the best idea but the only idea. The school yard, however, is different and it's my opinion that a good dose of don't-f*ck-with-me-ness goes a long way. You yourself referred to people leaving you alone in part because of a ruthless mean streak you have that comes out when provoked. Heh, the business world isn't so different after all. :touche:


Cheers. :buddies:

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Did I come off as heated? Didn't mean to. It's so much more difficult to express some things when not face-to-face.

I think the important thing to consider is different methods are appropriate in each situation.

carrot said:

Did I come off as heated? Didn't mean to. It's so much more difficult to express some things when not face-to-face.

I think the important thing to consider is different methods are appropriate in each situation.

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No you didnt, and I've edited my post to reflect such. Dang hard to judge emotions through words on a screen. My apologies.

You're absolutely right, different methods for each situation.


Cheers. :buddies:

Good post, carrot.

I can see how school shootings orginate from this....

My advice varies with the situation. Being a big guy, I can play mind games. My stance is, I can xxxing kill you with one blow and dont want to spend the next few years in juvi til I turn 18 and your 6 feet under. Regardless of the person, they all fear death or someone beating them in front of their friends.

If the person is rather well off financing, threating to sue if they touch you works wonders. Threatening to call the cops vs telling the school stafff too, but thats kind of a wimp out. Waiting for a win fall for sueing the kids rich dad or mom is defense number 2.

Illum_the_nation said:

I can see how school shootings orginate from this....

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Oh, Poppycock!

Iwas picked on in school quite a bit ( I was the fat kid). I ignored the bullies, walked away if I could, even turned the other cheek for years. Always telling myself that they weren't worth it. But after getting beat up for the 84th time in a year, I decided it was enough.
Once, only once I've fought back. The same bully that was always picking on me waited for me after school (with 6 of his friends). He and his friends started pushing me around, he hit me in the face, I struck back only once. I hit him in the lower jaw, which broke in 2 places. He fell to the ground, bleeding and crying. I got expelled from school, but as a teacher had witnessed the whole thing happening charges against me were dropped.
From that moment on I had a reputation. Everybody at the new school I went to already knew me. Nobody dared picking on me. Nobody even talked to me as if they were afraid to say the wrong thing. In the first 6 months at my new school nobody spoke to me at all, it was lonely, but at least I wasn't being bullied anymore.
After those 6 months, I found out how I could keep my reputation going strong and build up some social contacts too... When ever I saw someone at school being bullied, I'd step in and defend that person, the bullies always backed down because of my rep (even without me saying a word) and their victims often became my friends. Even guys from the senior year did not dare to challenge me, my reputation was that strong... Never had a girlfriend in highschool tho, but thats the price you have to pay when they call you a psychotic sadist with explosive temper and a really short fuse...

What amazes me the most is that I kept up that reputation for many years, even after I finished highschool without being in a single fight

Take some Judo lessons. You will learn how to defend yourself in a way that does not look like you are being aggressive. It teaches you holds and throws. Putting your opponent in an arm bar looks better than slugging him in the mouth.

I was thinking about my comments the other day and it occured to me. THe last year I was in school they started the PC stuff. Meaning, your space was the area between your elbows and threatening students could get you suspended. Infact, about anything could get you suspended.

So instead of saying I am going to beat you up, you could say, JUST WAIT.

Walk Away. Don't run, and don't lower yourself to their level. But when you can't walk away because you are being detained held, or other wise physically restrained, stand your ground. The shame is in those that can't control themselves, not in the humilitaion of surviving another day.


I have taught my children from the time they were big enough to stand, to stand up for themselves, and I have given them the tools to do just that. I also let them know that if they ever used those tools to start a fight, they would answer to me. Trust me the last thing my kids want to do is answer to me.