Space shuttle launch timing

greenlight · Jul 7, 2006

I watched the botched space shuttle launches for 2 days until they finally got it right. Does anyone think that NASA stalled on purpose in order to get the lift off to coincide with the 4th of July? And that it happened just minutes before the start of the World cup semifinal when the whole world has its TVs on?

DUQ · Jul 7, 2006

Pretty sad that NASA can build and send shuttle's up to space but cant figure out why the foam is falling off during lift off? Ever hear of duct tape?

cobra-ak · Jul 7, 2006

I am probably the last guy in the world to be labeled "rocket scientist" but who the hell came up with that piggyback launch design. As its taking off with the most powerful thrust known to man all the crap falls on the vehicle. The design should have been linear with the vehicle on top of the dynamite not behind it. :huh2:

gadget_lover · Jul 7, 2006

I'm not sure why they are worried about foam when a bird strike is at least as likely. The effort should be running towards adding a repair kit for those super delicate tiles.

Well, that's my thought, for what it's worth.

Daniel

DUQ · Jul 7, 2006

Here's the "DIY" space shuttle tile repair kit.

http://www.newscientistspace.com/article/dn7654

marcspar · Jul 7, 2006

The space shuttle launch HAD to coinicide with the North Korean missile tests....

That single long range missile that "failed" was actually blasted apart by a top secret mega wattage sodium arside super-charged led fusion laser thingie!

Marc

James S · Jul 7, 2006

for the days in question, the window for the launch was only 5 minutes wide. They had to launch within that 5 minutes or they would not be able to reach a rendezvous orbit with the ISS. If there was anything that would delay them more than 5 minutes, in this case the weather, then it was just a scrub until the next day.

I think actually the opposite was true as far as politically, the vice pres was down on the first day to watch it, and he had to go home

So the pressure was to go up the first day, not to wait till the 4th.

The problem with the foam is more complicated than it sounds. You can't just wrap duct tape around it

I also suggested shrink wrap and they laughed at me

the parts where things are falling off need to be redesigned, but at this late date in the lifecycle of the thing it's just not going to happen. They are points of very high stress during the acceleration of launch and you just dont mess around with that without a lot of testing that is very difficult and time consuming.

tvodrd · Jul 7, 2006

Shuttle tile is interesting stuff. You can heat it white-hot-incandescing with an oxy-acetylynene torch and pick it up with uninsulated fingers! The thermal conductivity is so low it won't burn you. I remember this from a cover photo on the SAMPE Journal back when I was a member that was illumated by the piece in the guy's bare hand. It would be an awsome demonstration for a "Materials and their properties" college class! "Pass this around."

Larry

James S · Jul 7, 2006

and it wasn't tiles that failed in the most recent disaster was it? It was foam breaking the "carbon carbon" panels that make up some of the more stress prone aerodynamic panels. I'm not sure what those are made of.

The tiles also are each one unique. It's not just bathroom tiles, but each one is contoured for the specific place on the shuttle that it is supposed to go. Carrying a spare isn't just as easy as hauling up a box with a few perfectly square ones, even if the glue could be made to hold in a vacuum, there is the question of fitting a mis matched tile, and would stresses on the tiny bits sticking out tear it out and cause more damage than if you had just left a hole there. There was a repair kit that they worked on in the early days, and I was surprised to learn a few years ago that they never carried it or finished that project. At this point repair in orbit just can't be done. They look for damage, if it's found to be serious enough to make landing dangerous then they just wait at the ISS for the last of the shuttles to come up and get them.

Illum · Jul 11, 2006

James S said:
for the days in question, the window for the launch was only 5 minutes wide. They had to launch within that 5 minutes or they would not be able to reach a rendezvous orbit with the ISS. If there was anything that would delay them more than 5 minutes, in this case the weather, then it was just a scrub until the next day.

think actually the opposite was true as far as politically, the vice pres was down on the first day to watch it, and he had to go home So the pressure was to go up the first day, not to wait till the 4th.

The problem with the foam is more complicated than it sounds. You can't just wrap duct tape around it I also suggested shrink wrap and they laughed at me the parts where things are falling off need to be redesigned, but at this late date in the lifecycle of the thing it's just not going to happen. They are points of very high stress during the acceleration of launch and you just dont mess around with that without a lot of testing that is very difficult and time consuming.

Duct tape....someone else suggested it too,...its on the news

http://www.wftv.com/news/9497041/detail.html?treets=orlc&tid=2656319031813&tml=orlc_strange&tmi=orlc_strange_1_10000207112006&ts=H

Donovan · Jul 12, 2006

My biggest question is why the "foam issue" wasn't an issue in the early years of the shuttle program?

I have read a lot of conflicting reports that talk about the "environmentally friendly" new foam that replaced the perfectly good working Freon based foam. If NASA did change the foam then why the heck would they not switch back to something that they know that works? So what if Freon is "bad" for the environment, I suspect a shuttle exploding would cause a lot more environmental damage than a little leaked Freon! Political correctness be damned, Something this big and important should be able to get exceptions on any material issues if a better alternative is not available…

AJ_Dual · Jul 12, 2006

As to the Space Suttle tile "repair kit", I remember reading in Science magazine about this egg sculpture in Canada. A

In the late 70's, a town in Alberta Canada, Vegreville, wanted a giant aluminum egg decorated like those ultra-fancy Ukranian Easter eggs to celebrate their town's ethnic heritage. This Univ. of Utah computer science professor was able to design the egg with a very limited number of triangular and star-shaped tiles. He discovered he could make almost any shape with just a limited number of triangles and star shapes.

They then realized they could have tiled the Space Shuttle this way, and instead of every tile being unique, they could have just used a few different triangles and stars, and it would have made the carrying of "spares" do-able, since only a limited number of shapes would have to have been carried. But it was too late.

http://www.geocities.com/williamwchow/egg/e-egg.htm

The shuttle is a very impressive vehicle, considering it's high-end 1960's technology, built in the 70's, and tested in the 80's. Unfortunately it's a horrendus waste. The Shuttle's "Reusability" is a farce, it costs more to refurb the shuttle for each flight than it does to build a new rocket each time.

If we'd spent the entire Shuttle program's budget and just put capsules and cargo on the very reliable Delta series launchers, we could have done ten times the number of missions, and been gearing up for a return to the moon by now, if not actualy having a base there.

Empath · Jul 12, 2006

Foam Urban Legend

Who would spread those myths?

Listen in.

ledlurker · Jul 12, 2006

AJ_Dual said:
As to the Space Suttle tile "repair kit", I remember reading in Science magazine about this egg sculpture in Canada. A

In the late 70's, a town in Alberta Canada, Vegreville, wanted a giant aluminum egg decorated like those ultra-fancy Ukranian Easter eggs to celebrate their town's ethnic heritage. This Univ. of Utah computer science professor was able to design the egg with a very limited number of triangular and star-shaped tiles. He discovered he could make almost any shape with just a limited number of triangles and star shapes.

They then realized they could have tiled the Space Shuttle this way, and instead of every tile being unique, they could have just used a few different triangles and stars, and it would have made the carrying of "spares" do-able, since only a limited number of shapes would have to have been carried. But it was too late.

http://www.geocities.com/williamwchow/egg/e-egg.htm

The shuttle is a very impressive vehicle, considering it's high-end 1960's technology, built in the 70's, and tested in the 80's. Unfortunately it's a horrendus waste. The Shuttle's "Reusability" is a farce, it costs more to refurb the shuttle for each flight than it does to build a new rocket each time.

If we'd spent the entire Shuttle program's budget and just put capsules and cargo on the very reliable Delta series launchers, we could have done ten times the number of missions, and been gearing up for a return to the moon by now, if not actualy having a base there.

NASA is goin back to the capsule rockets : Project Ares

Some of the limitation of the STS was due to the lack of funds during development. A case in point is the solid rocket boosters. SRB are a fraction of the cost during development compared to liquid boosters but liquid boosters are a fraction of the cost to operate compared to SRB's.

The report on the Columbia failure is excellent reading on these types of tradeoffs during design do to money limitations. A couple of years ago you could get a copy from NASA just for the shipping cost.

Donovan · Jul 17, 2006

Empath said:
Foam Urban Legend

Not sure why your quoting a bunch of rl, thats not where I read about this issue as I don't ever listen to him....This is not a political issue to me. I would just like to know why this wasn't an issue in the early years of the program. What changed???

James S · Jul 17, 2006

I think it HAS always been a problem, they just didn't consider it a problem. A bit of foam falling off shouldn't be able to damage the shuttle, and for many years it didn't, even though they knew that bits were occasionally breaking off.

The duct tape bit has to be a joke right? They dont even use it for sealing ducts anymore. Nobody seriously believes that wrapping duct tape around the thing would do anything but rip off in the first 2 minutes of flight do they?

We should be able to determine just when foam started falling, or at least when they started recording it since everything about the shuttle is logged and documented and filed. I'm sure this is where the idea about the different kinds of foam has come from. It wouldn't surprise me to find out that they first started documenting it shortly after they switched foam types. But that doesn't mean that it wasn't happening prior to that, nor that it had anything to do with it. Correlation doesn't mean causation

Space shuttle launch timing

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