Photography: Flashlight vs Flash

ltiu

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Went into a water logged cave. Cannot bring regular camera. Got a water proof disposable camera with ISO 800 film.

Disposable camera does not have a flash. Duh! But I got a P3D Q5. Idea: use P3D Q5 on turbo as the light source when taking pictures inside dark cave.

Shot a lot of pictures, both inside and outside cave. All pictures in cave came up blank (empty, nada, dark, under-exposed). Pictures shot outside in the sun came up ok.

How many lumens does a regular camera flash produce? How many lumens do I need to expose an ISO 800 film properly?

I am very disappointed the P3D Q5 could not produce enough light to expose film. Any thoughts you'd be willing to share?
 

greenlight

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Iso 800 film is for outdoor use, and isn't as sensitive as iso 100 film. That's why they put it in disposable waterproof cameras with no flash: They're for the beach or pool.

I'm sure your experience would be different with a camera with lower iso rating.
 

Yucca Patrol

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Quite a few people use LED's for cave photography, but they typicaly use cameras that can have very long shutter speeds (15 seconds or so). Often these cave photographers will use multiple LED lights as well as remotely triggered real camera flashes.

That disposable camera might have had 1/60 second shutter speed and is too fast of a film for low light conditions. In comparison, a 15 second exposure using more sensitive film would keep the shutter open 900 times longer than your disposable camera. Then consider that cave photographers use multiple light sources, your disappointing experience makes sense.
 

WAVE_PARTICLE

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It's not that your P3D Q5 is not powerful enough to expose ISO 800 film....


The real truth is that the disposable camera is not opening the shutter long enough for proper exposure. In a dark cave, you need a camera that can open the shutter for at least a second or two (not the 1/125 of a second shutter speed that typical disposable cameras have). Even if you were able to keep the shutter open for two seconds, it doesn't allow you too much time to "paint" the scenery with your P3D Q5.

In this case, the only cameras that can handle this are those that you can manually set the exposure settings like aperture and shutter speed. An SLR can do the trick. Depending on how dark the cave is, with ISO 800, you may need to open up the shutter for maybe 10 seconds and start painting your scene with your light. A camera tripod is a must. Note that there will be a lot of trial and error when doing this as calculating for proper exposure is next to impossible. A digital SLR will help in saving film costs and also speed the experimentation process.

A camera flash basically floods the scene with a very short burst of powerful light. I don't know the lumen reading during the 1/1000 of a second that the flash is engaged, but I know it far exceeds that of your P3D. Anyways, have fun.

WP
 

RustyKnee

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white LEDs generally won't give good colour rendition for photography. You will need a very very bright light to get short exposure times. Flashs generate thouasands of lumens.



Stu
 
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ernsanada

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Forget the disposable camera.

A camera with manual settings would help.

Along with a tripod.

Just shoot a lot of pictures, bracket the exposures and experiment with different lights.
 

WadeF

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Iso 800 film is for outdoor use, and isn't as sensitive as iso 100 film. That's why they put it in disposable waterproof cameras with no flash: They're for the beach or pool.

Got that backwards. :) ISO 800 is much more sensative (and grainer) than ISO 100 film. It goes ISO 100, 200, 400, 800, 1600, etc. Each time you double the ISO, it takes 1 stop less of light to get the same exposure.

So if at 100 ISO the proper exposure is f/2.8 1/60th, for 200ISO the exposure wouldnow be f/4 1/60th or f/2.8 1/125th, and for ISO 800 f/2.8 1/500th. Or f/8 1/60th.

The put ISO 800 in most disposable cameras because they can have a faster shutter speed and smaller apeture resulting in more pictures coming out with more of the scene in focus, and less motion blur. If they put 100 ISO in the same camera they would have to use a larger apeture, or a longer exposure. The images could potentially be sharper and less grainy, but more people's pictures would have more motion blur, more shallow depth of field, etc.

They try to make the disposable cameras as idiot proof as possible, and sacrifice image quality.

Kodak tried marketing Ektar 25 aka Royal Gold 25 which was a great fine grained film. The problem was people would load it in the point and shoot cameras and their built in flash was only good to 5-10 feet, their shutter speeds were slower, etc, so you had people getting more under exposed and blurry pictures. For those who know photography 25 speed film was great for certain things, like scenery shots, etc.

However, it wasn't working out for the masses, so Kodak shifted gears and went with the ISO 800 aka MAX, ZOOM MAX, etc, which when used in people's small point and shoot cameras resulted in extended flash range, faster shutter speeds, greater depth of field, which meant the average picture for the masses was better, but grainier, but in a 4x6 print it was acceptable.

So the under water cameras are set up with a fixed exposure and apeture, and even though the ISO 800 is sensative film, the exposure isn't long enough for the P3D. However, if you had the P3D on TURBO and had it within a couple feet of something, that maybe enough, but if you're shinning it on something 10-20 feet away, probably not going to cut it.

Update:

Just did a test with my light meter. I think I did this right. The sunny 16 rule for photography is, if the subject is being hit with direct full sunlight, the exposure it approx f16 and the shutter speed = the film's ISO.

So if you have 800 speed film, f1/6 and 1/800th of a second. If your camera doens't have 1/800th, you can go 1/500th and you'd just slightly over exposure, which the negative can handle, or go 1/1000th and be slightly under exposed. Usually it's better to slightly over expose.

So I set my light meter to f/16 and ISO 800. Now I just had to move my P3D Q5 back and forth from the sensor until I got about 1/800th of a second. I found I had to be around 6-8 inches from the sensor, on turbo, to get this exposure.

You could try taking shots at 1 to 2 feet, but the image will probably be under exposed, IF the camera is set up for this exposure. It maybe set up to slightly over exposure in full sun, so if it is cloudy out it will still get something.

So anything past 1-2 feet would be very under exposed.
 
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HKJ

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How many lumens does a regular camera flash produce?

A flash can usual give light that is at the same level as sunshine, but it can only do it for about 1/1000 second at a time.

I have some flashes that can fire 150 flashes on 4 AA cells, that is 0.15 seconds of light! A flashlight is just a small candle :candle: compared to that!

Your need a disposable camera with flash (They exists) or a regular camera that has a B (bulb) setting.
To use the bulb setting: your place your camera somewhere, open the shutter, then walk around and light the cave with your flashlight, when finished, go back to the camera and close the shutter again.
 

nzgunnie

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Now I just had to move my P3D Q5 back and forth from the sensor until I got about 1/800th of a second. I found I had to be around 6-8 inches from the sensor, on turbo, to get this exposure.

Kind of right, except you need to really measure the light bouncing off your subject in this case.

As you would have found, there wouldn't be enough reflected light unless you used an exposure of at least 1 minute (or even much longer), and painted with light.

Your technique does successfully illustrate and put into perspective the level of light coming form the flashlight.
 

Stereodude

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A good camera flash has an instantaneous output something more in line with 100,000 lumens (or more). That's why your flashlight didn't make a dent so to speak.
 

Crenshaw

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I tried taking some photos with the Head off my T1, but the background lighting was nice an yellow incan, so the foreground light from the T1 came out very washed out...:(

Crenshaw
 

WadeF

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Kind of right, except you need to really measure the light bouncing off your subject in this case.

Not when using an ambient light meter that measures the light hitting the subject from the light source. :) You point the sensor at the light source, in this case the P3D.

You are talking about taking a reflective reading, but that isn't what I was doing. I was using a Sekonic 408 light meter, which has an ambient meter and a reflective spot meter.

I took my digital camera and set it to ISO 100, f/5.6 and 1/800th, which should be the right exposure for shooting under direct sunlight (f/8 and 1/400th, f/11 and 1/200th, f/16 and 1/100th would be identical exposures):

I held the P3D on Turbo at about the same distance as I did when I took my reading, and as you can see, the exposure is about right:



Then I backed up and had the P3D about 4 feet from the subject and you can see it just barely lit it up. Anything past this distance would just be black unless it was highly reflective, like the figure's white outfit:



So if you try to use your P3D on Turbo to take pictures with a daylight exposure, you gotta keep it close to the subject. :)
 
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GarageBoy

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You need flash (with a high guide number) in that situation, or a tripod for looong exposures.

Need water resistance? Get the Olympus weatherproof cameras or an old Nikonos
 

m2usa

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Perhaps I should start a new thread, but I am also a photographer and interested in using a flashlight to enhance some photos that I want to take.

Here is what I would like to have:

- something with a 6P bezel size (I want to use colored diffusers that I have)
- runs on AA but CR123s are OK as well
- incandescent preferred
- tripod mount so I can use them without an assistant (this is the hard part)
- reasonably priced (made in China is OK)

I've searched around for something like this, but none seem to have the tripod mount. I'd be really grateful if someone could point me in the right direction. Oh, I'm new here, and just want to say that CPF is a great forum. Thanks.
 

f22shift

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Forget the disposable camera.

A camera with manual settings would help.

Along with a tripod.

Just shoot a lot of pictures, bracket the exposures and experiment with different lights.


precisely.

i went to howe's caverns(tourist trap) and i can barely handhold a 50mm 1.8 wide open at 1600. i had to bracket down one on some shots and boost it later post process.

you definitely need a tripod. or a monopod at minimum.
 

srvctec

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Perhaps I should start a new thread, but I am also a photographer and interested in using a flashlight to enhance some photos that I want to take.

Here is what I would like to have:

- something with a 6P bezel size (I want to use colored diffusers that I have)
- runs on AA but CR123s are OK as well
- incandescent preferred
- tripod mount so I can use them without an assistant (this is the hard part)
- reasonably priced (made in China is OK)

I've searched around for something like this, but none seem to have the tripod mount. I'd be really grateful if someone could point me in the right direction. Oh, I'm new here, and just want to say that CPF is a great forum. Thanks.

Why not just use something like this to mount the light to your tripod?
 

Khaytsus

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Flashlights can be used in photography to good effect, but NOT to take a whole scene, at least not in a reasonable amount of time. :)

The technique is called "light painting" and the basic setup is you put the camera on the "bulb" setting, which means the shutter stays open for as long as you want, then you "paint" the scene with your flashlight.

You can get some interesting results with this. Shadows or light patterns that don't fit reality, highlight specific areas, etc..

With digital, however, the longer the shutter is open the more noise you're going to get, and it's easy to overexpose areas.

I've only really tried it a few times, and mostly just experimenting, so this isn't a great shot or anything, but note the mix of shadows coming from the chandelier.

http://gallery.unlimitedphoto.com/v/Showcase/2005_02_19-13_36_02-1749.jpg.html
 

m2usa

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Why not just use something like this to mount the light to your tripod?

That is a cool device to use, and perhaps it would work well. Although I was hoping to use a smaller camera clamp to attach the light. I have found that it works well in most any circumstance and can be easily carried in a small bag. Thanks for the suggestion though, and I'll take a closer look at it.
 
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