Myth Busters

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Packhorse

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The "manufacture" (they just put their name on it) of this light have made the following claims.

It has 4 x 3watt LED's and consumes 10watt ( not too good at math).
It produces 900 lumen
It brighter than a 21w HID dive light. (maybe they mean a higher LUX)
The also linked to this report


From what I can figure out from the pics

It probably uses a single 35mm MR11 size TIR optic
It probably uses a MC-E LED

Judging by the pic below my MC-E guess is enforced by the hole in the centre of the beam.
At a guess they have used a very old and tired 21w HID to take this photo comparison and set the cameras white balance to suit the LED not something neutral. Or perhaps took the photo 1/2 second after turning the HID on.



314979_156490547774015_145827905506946_284209_39460035_n.jpg



So what do the educated at CPF think.

Can a 35mm TIP optic and MC-E running at 10watt/900 lumen out perform a 21w HID(1500+-lumen) with a 75+-mm reflector?
 

The_bad_Frag

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HAHA! :D Marketing is everything you need. :D

...the right flashlight on the beamshot looks like a 5mm led china light and not 21W hid...:ohgeez:

The leds are Seoul P7.
 
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JacobJones

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I don't see how they worked out that 900 lumens is brighter than a 21watt hid. If a hid bulb produces 80 lumens per watt (just an average, I know that it varies) then they need to change their description to "780 lumens dimmer than a 21watt hid".
 

unifiedteamdiving

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Seriously....You are killing me here. I answered you very politely and nicely on the "other forum" on which you tried to stir the pot, and now after that you choose not to reply there but come here and start a post called "Myth Busters"....Really.....why do you not post a disclaimer that you have a horse in this race and that you feel threatened by our product? At least that would be truthful. Here is a blow by blow answer...

The "manufacture" (they just put their name on it) of this light have made the following claims.

Why try to spin a good thing into a negative thing? I never once claimed that we were the manufacturer, in fact I use the manufacturer's name in my product description. I decided rather than trying to reinvent the wheel, I went to the Number 1 manufacturer in the world of LED's, who have produced LED's for every application imaginable, industry, NASA, Baja 1000 race cars, Mining applications (Ashdown of Australia largest Mining supplier in the world - maybe you have heard of them - distributes them in your neck of the woods), I can go on and on. But why. Their product and housings are amazing and simply indestructible. By "piggy backing" on their knowledge and technology and their power of being able to produce 100 000 units a month, I was not only able to tap into their wealth of knowledge but also their super buying power. I was able to get a price that is unheard of in the scuba industry. An LED head with E/O cord that is far better than a 21 w HID for $349.95. If you add a 4.4amp battery w e/o cord $899.00 for over 5 hours burntime.

It has 4 x 3watt LED's and consumes 10watt ( not too good at math).

As already stated and explained, we - the manufacturer and I, decided to under quote the wattage as there are inefficiencies. That means yes there are 4 x 3 w LED but when tested the "MATH" did not add up to 12w as we are running them at 95%. Basic knowledge uses a formula to calculate watts... P=V/A and V was tested at 13.498v with a draw of 0.8450a which totals 11.40581w. So we decided to slightly underestimate it in the literature to be sure we were covered. This must a first in the industry as most over quote.

It produces 900 lumen

As already stated, the 900 LUMEN is the total amount of light produced by the 4 x 3w LED's. That has nothing to do with the "effective light" to the user. The LUX is what determines the "effective" light. On the other forum I included an IsoLux summary report for your review (http://utdequipment.com/isolux.pdf) and if you were to take the time to compare them against the HID isolux report you would find the LED to be much much more effective.

Now for the underwater design...we had to work very closely with the engineers to develop the proper optic that would give us the "effective" light we wanted, both amount and shape, while underwater. This became a year+ long process of both testing optics and color in a wide variety of water conditions. Remember it is not only what a light meter might tell you in the "hotspot" but also what is useful to the diver, can he/she signal effectively, can he/she highlight the object without burning it out, can the light throw a beam a certain distance through the murk?

Once we settled on a primary LED and a video LED optic that would meet our requirements, then we had to fit it inside that robust tiny housing (Aluminum Cast) that is used in multiple applications. We also needed to find a through-port capable of 180m/600' and include an E/O wet pluggable cord to make it a "system." This system must integrate into our drysuit heating system (Solar) as well as be wet swappable with other LED heads, batteries and so on that we already have in the UTD/DIR legacy. For example, I wanted to be able to shoot video at the end of the line, with the Video Heads, and then swap out the video (60 degree beam) for a Primary Head (10 degree) which could fit in my pocket and then scooter home with a primary making the return home safer and easier to communicate with my team mates. Then when pulling into deco, unplug the light head and plug the battery into my heating port and away we go. Warmth during deco...btw much better deco according to the US Navy tests.

So as you can tell there is a lot more in developing a lighting system for our customer base than just simply "Sticking" my name on an LED head, as you implied.

I hope this answers some of your questions.

Andrew
 

unifiedteamdiving

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As I already stated, I am not an engineer, I simply worked very closely with the manufacturer's engineers to produce and build these underwater LED's. We used 4 Seoul P7 chips from the "top" bin, not the bottom. Meaning the top bin has the chips with Lumens from 700-900, depending on how much you drive them. But truthfully Lumens means little to us underwater, effective light means everything. Effective light comes more from how you drive the LED's, how the Optics focus the light as you need and believe it or not on the color. One can measure the effective light through LUX. So I made available the IsoLux summary (http://utdequipment.com/isolux.pdf) to compare it to the 21w HID isolux summary. If you compare them you will find the LED isolux to be much much more effective. Never mind the fact that we spend the last year+ testing them underwater in every condition and type of water to ensure that we are getting an "effective" light output for the consumer.

I hope this clarifies some of your doubts.

Andrew
 

Justin Case

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Lumens is not a unit of "brightness". So 1500+ lumens from the HID vs 900 lumens from the LED is the wrong comparison to make. Typical brightness units are lux and candela.
 

moderator007

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Advertising is like a good lawyer, Its all in how you word things.
It could beat out the hid in lux readings if its beam is tighter focused than a floody beamed hid. So really it would be brighter in this given spot. But not in over all light output (lumens).
From the pic above, the batteries look dead on the hid. :shrug:
 
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Packhorse

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Yeah, but have you ever seen a 35mm ( OK lets give them the benefit of the doubt and say 50mm) TIR and a P7/ MCE produce a higher lux than a tightly focuse HID using a 75mm reflector?
 

moderator007

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It would depend on the reflector design used not just size. I do agree, something doesn't seem right. From the hid's I have seen there's just no comparison to the p7.
 

Bullzeyebill

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Closing this thread at least temporarily until it can be sorted out.

Bill

This thread will remain closed.
 
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