IEEE and NEMA working on spec for dimming/flickering of LED based light sources

Anders Hoveland

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That is the problem with LED, it is a different technology than an incandescent filament.
Whereas dimming a filament causes a orange-shift and decrease in color temperature, ordinary dimming of an LED can result in a slight (but noticeable) color shift, as the blue wavelengths from the diode become a little (2-4 nm) longer.

Another little technical problem is that it's challenging to design a circuit to drive the LED that is both capable of ordinary dimming and is efficient (although I am sure it is no doubt possible).

PWD is a strategy that seeks to avoid these problems by simply modulating the LED on and off at high frequency, but this leads to the problem of flicker, which, according to some reports that have researched into this, can really have insidious effects on someone in a working environment even if they are not consciously aware of it. Eye strain, difficulty concentrating, agitation and such.

PWD is the wrong direction to be going in, in my opinion, but engineers have never been known to be considerate about the ergonomics of the things they design.

Another obvious strategy would be to just turn off some of the emitters.
 
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uk_caver

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That is the problem with LED, it is a different technology than an incandescent filament.
Whereas dimming a filament causes a orange-shift and decrease in color temperature, ordinary dimming of an LED can result in a slight (but noticeable) color shift, as the blue wavelengths from the diode become a little (2-4 nm) longer.
...for some values of 'noticeable'.

Another little technical problem is that it's challenging to design a circuit to drive the LED that is both capable of ordinary dimming and is efficient (although I am sure it is no doubt possible).
It's debatable how significant ultra-high efficiency would be when running at significantly reduced output.
If a driver was 90% efficient at max power but 50% efficient at 5% power, the actual energy lost at 5% output would be small, and in a situation where that was significant/costly enough to care about, some solution like having multiple drivers would be possible.

PWD is a strategy that seeks to avoid these problems by simply modulating the LED on and off at high frequency, but this leads to the problem of flicker, which, according to some reports that have researched into this, can really have insidious effects on someone in a working environment even if they are not consciously aware of it. Eye strain, difficulty concentrating, agitation and such.

PWD is the wrong direction to be going in, in my opinion, but engineers have never been known to be considerate about the ergonomics of the things they design.
Flicker is significantly an issue of the frequency chosen. With a high enough frequency, it may only be potential stroboscopic effects on moving objects which are significant.

As for engineers, much comes down to the design brief, which should be written with an eye to expected customers - what they want, what they think they want, what they will like or dislike in practice, and what they are prepared to pay.
There are clearly some people who would complain whatever was done, and they may well be the last people anyone is likely to care about, or even desire to have as a customer.

Another obvious strategy would be to just turn off some of the emitters.
That does depends on the light fitting and optical arrangement and the range of desired outputs.
If there are multiple emitters lighting up the same area, for outputs of 'at least one emitter', it is possible to have some emitters on and some running PWM, meaning less intensity change between PWM on and off states, which can significantly lessen stroboscopic effects on moving objects.

With an eye to flashlights, even when there is a single emitter, where there are parallel constant current drivers (such as the trusty AMC7135), it is possible to do a similar thing there - power control by turning one or more drivers fully on, and having one driver running PWM to make up the fractional part of the power output. I've done that, and it seems to work quite nicely.
 

SemiMan

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Not surprised by the comment by Philips. They have been pretty resistant to any solidification of a specification.

I do not find the IEEE spec overly onerous, but it does add costs for low exposure lights (i.e. outdoor and hallways) where you are not exposed to the light long enough that flicker becomes an issue.

Anders, 1% linear dimming is pretty easy and adds fairly little cost. Even less than this is not too hard, but if you want fixture to fixture consistency you really need to PWM the light. One issues is that single stage power conversion designs with PFC functionality inherently have 2x line rate flicker. 2 stage designs have little flicker at line rate.

PWM at high frequencies, >=1500Hz approx appears to have no photobiological or nuero-muscular or other ill effects. Could use more study, but it appears to be "acceptable". Cost to do that is not very high at all if done right. Turning off emitters would impact distribution and would be expensive in implementation.

Efficiency w.r.t. dimming is not that difficult, except where you are talking triac/phase-cut dimmable. You have to burn off a minimum amount of quiescent power to keep the triac happy. There is not much you can do about that. Efficient dimming through analog/digital means is quite possible and regularly done, but always cost-trade-offs.
 

DIWdiver

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That is the problem with LED, it is a different technology than an incandescent filament.
Whereas dimming a filament causes a orange-shift and decrease in color temperature, ordinary dimming of an LED can result in a slight (but noticeable) color shift, as the blue wavelengths from the diode become a little (2-4 nm) longer.
So incandescent changes a lot, LED changes a little. How is this a problem for LEDs?
Another little technical problem is that it's challenging to design a circuit to drive the LED that is both capable of ordinary dimming and is efficient (although I am sure it is no doubt possible).
Plain wrong. Circuits to do 'ordinary' dimming can easily be made to be highly efficient at low output levels. It's when you want to get 'fancy' with your dimming and want to remain cost competitive with 'ordinary' circuits that you see engineering challenges.
PWD is a strategy that seeks to avoid these problems by simply modulating the LED on and off at high frequency, but this leads to the problem of flicker, which, according to some reports that have researched into this, can really have insidious effects on someone in a working environment even if they are not consciously aware of it. Eye strain, difficulty concentrating, agitation and such.
Again, plain wrong. There's little debate that flicker at 120 Hz can adversely affect some people. But it's quite easy to run PWM (not PWD) frequencies well above the frequencies where humans are affected by the modulation. The problem is in circuits that have inherent line-frequency or twice-line-frequency flicker. This is not caused by PWM but by the design of the power supply.
PWD is the wrong direction to be going in, in my opinion, but engineers have never been known to be considerate about the ergonomics of the things they design.
As an engineer, I'm offended by this statement, and I believe it's generally wrong. I take great pride in my ability to recommend "improvements" to my customers that will result in greater customer satisfaction around their products, and this includes substantial consideration of ergonomics. I see evidence all around me that engineers and other creators have taken great care to improve the ergonomics of many products. In my experience, it's not the engineers, but the accountants, managers, and/or sales/marketing people i.e. 'those in charge' that drive the development of crap. Engineers are very rarely in charge.
Another obvious strategy would be to just turn off some of the emitters.
Yes, this would work very well. However, as others have pointed out, often this isn't practical.
 

FRITZHID

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.................

As an engineer, I'm offended by this statement, and I believe it's generally wrong. I take great pride in my ability to recommend "improvements" to my customers that will result in greater customer satisfaction around their products, and this includes substantial consideration of ergonomics. I see evidence all around me that engineers and other creators have taken great care to improve the ergonomics of many products. In my experience, it's not the engineers, but the accountants, managers, and/or sales/marketing people i.e. 'those in charge' that drive the development of crap. Engineers are very rarely in charge.

Thank you! Been waiting for someone to point that out.
 

Anders Hoveland

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Yes, this would work very well. However, as others have pointed out, often this isn't practical.
Many LED dies now are using a multi-emitter design, even those designed for point-like light sources. Surely it would not be too difficult to slightly redesign these so some of the emitters could be selectively powered.

An excellent example of this is the LEDengin LZ4-00GW08, designed to replace halogen spotlights in art museums, which has four emitters on the same board and can be separately powered. The entire die is only 7mm wide, and is rated for 10 Watts. It comes with a special heat pad board to be mounted on with the properly designed electrical contacts.
 
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SemiMan

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Many LED dies now are using a multi-emitter design, even those designed for point-like spotlight lamps. Surely it would not be too difficult to slightly redesign these so some of the emitters could be selectively powered.

As someone who has designed, and managed the design of commercial LED drivers, surely you are wrong, at least where cost is concerned. It is much easier and less costly to dim a single output versus having multiple FETs for switching banks of series or parallel connected LEDs and/or having wider voltage operating ranges.

Add on to that much greater optical complexity, especially for point like spotlights.
 

RoGuE_StreaK

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So incandescent changes a lot, LED changes a little. How is this a problem for LEDs?
Just thinking, one possible "issue" could be that those people who have dimmers (I'm not one) may be expecting and wanting the warm shift? Could be a niche angle to aim for if you're developing something?
 

Anders Hoveland

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Just thinking, one possible "issue" could be that those people who have dimmers (I'm not one) may be expecting and wanting the warm shift? Could be a niche angle to aim for if you're developing something?
It's hard to say whether people who choose dimmers particularly want the capability to lower the color temperature, or are just looking to be able to reduce the intensity of the light. I doubt a survey has been conducted on this.

I had the idea for an LED dimmer that would increase the color temperature at very low light levels, giving the effect of being in the shade, bottoming out at 4000K (like direct sunlight) at the most intense light setting.
 
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SemiMan

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Trust me suppliers have done surveys and studies. Customers want both. Hence either sell two models or eat the cost and have a switch. That cost differential is quickly going down.
 
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