Are CCrane Pak-Lites regulated?

Are CCrane Pak-Lites regulated? (Several Pak-Lite threads merged.)

(Moderator note: Several Pak-Lite threads merged.)

I have given these cool little lights to a couple of theatre techies I know and they run them for 'free' by using DuraCell CT 9v batts that have already been used for one performance each in body mics. There is a lot of juice left after doing one show -- but not enough to chance another show. They can only use just so many of these 1/2 used batts in mics for rehearsals, so they have a box of em. It really beats throwing them away and it's been months now and with show use every night both lights are still on their first 1/2 battery! These lights are sort of like the Milkyspit Candle for 9v batts.

They like the lights so well that one of them asked me about trying to build a light that would be about the same brightness as the Pak-Lite on the dim setting for lighting up equipment in the booth. These would also run on the 1/2 spent 9v batts. It's kind of a cool idea because there would be no wall-worts and no 60hz hum problems from these AND they run for free.

Has anyone messed with these nifty lights? Are they regulated? Are they just resistored? Has anyone run across a review of this light anywhere?

I'm wondering if they're regulated because that would make it a more dificult to emulate the great battery draining performance of the original.

Any info would be appreciated.

There's been some threads about them in the past and you should be able to find them with the search function. I don't know if anyone has actually taken one apart, but from their description and specs it looks like they're just two LED's in series, plus a pair of resistors you can switch between. IMO they are cute but way overpriced. The vendor also jerked around a CPF'er who set up a group buy (i.e. the vendor agreed and then backed out). So I'd stay away from them. If you want a 9V adjustable light, get a PALite which everyone seems to like.

Thanks Paul, I searched around but I didn't think to look here -- I'm going to bed but I'll check tomorrow...er...today.

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paulr:
from their description and specs it looks like they're just two LED's in series, plus a pair of resistors you can switch between. IMO they are cute but way overpriced.

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That's the kind of news I was hoping for. A big part of the motivation for this project is the 'way overpriced' part. That and I thought that it may be simple enough to be a first LED project for me.

Part of the problem with them is they may not work so well on partly depleted alkaline cells due to the voltage sag. When you build your version, you might use a single LED and a higher resistor. That will give you more voltage headroom to use, at the cost of some battery efficiency, but as you say, the batteries are free.

In defense of the PacLite

I guess I'm kind of the lone guy around here in that I not only own but *like* the PacLite. And yes, I got 'screwed' (in fact lost my front money) on two of them in the legendary 'group buy gone bad'. Being the curious type, I still bought one from the evil maker when he offered them at $19 (less the $10 battery) IIRC. Since I know what it takes to bring a small run product to market, I don't see that price as being necessarily excessive (a problem Peter G seems to be dealing with today?). I'm sure most if not all those who condemn it have never really looked at one, let alone owned it or used it. For it's intended use (very long life, very light weight) it's very hard to beat. First quality build, IMO easily on par with Arc. Under half an ounce. *Honest* run times over 1000 hours on low. That means without dimming.

If you look, I'm sure you'll find me defending it here in several threads and taking some heat for doing so.

That said, yes it's a resistored light (intended to run on the 9 Volt *lithium* battery so regulation is really not a issue). It uses a center off switch to select between (he says reaching for his notebook)off, a 150 ohm in series with two *nichia* LEDs for 16 mA on high (same sort of level you get with say an Ultra) or an additional 3 K for 1 mA on low. Total Vf 6.5 and 5.7 Volts respectively. Using a 1200 mAh battery (the 'factory' specified one) it gets awesome run times (the reason I was interested), is very light weight (a goal for the back packer market it's aimed at) and has IMO excellent ergonomics and quality. The body is an injection molded case (read 'expensive tooling'), the PCB, switch and LEDs are of the very highest quality. A 'top drawer' item IMO. I doubt the total production is a thousand units, given the narrow market. That makes it hard to pay Engineering and tooling costs (the very sort of issues Peter is up against).

And has just been stated, *independant users* are 'in love' with it in an unexpected market. It performs very well in a narrow, but useful way. Or we wouldn't be having this discussion, right?

FWIW, it's seeing the real value of very low level LED flashlights that lead me to suggest to Scott, design and build the electronics for the 'milkycandle'. On low it provides about the same level of light as the PL. The PL also demonstrated to me that an increase in levels had to be larger than twice (I use four times, 'two f stops') to be practical.

Also FWIW I (like a lot of others) made 'snap top' lights for 9 volt batteries before I 'found' the PL. The difference is I used LM334 based regulators from the start. But always at 30 mA, since I didn't realize how useful lower levels can be. I've got two here on the computer table, a single and a dual LED, with the few small components involved epoxied onto the top of old battery connectors (taken from dead batteries). I've made maybe half a dozen, never had one fail.

In this use I see no problem with a simple resistor. When it finally gets too dim (a very long time as pointed out), simply put another free battery in. It won't go dark on the user, just get dimmer and dimmer. As some makers represent their run times it would be years......

I'd suggest either a few K ohms and either one or two LEDs (you might try red for the use at hand) to get the level wanted. Or, better still, a few hundred ohms (to limit maximum current) in series with a small trimpot of a say 5 or 10 K epoxied to the top of the battery clip (you can buy a very nice one from Digikey with very stout brass posts half an inch tall to protect the works for under a dollar) so the user can adjust it to the level he likes with a small screwdriver.

PM me if you have problems.

And no, my PacLite is not for sale.....

Doug Owen

Re: In defense of the PacLite

I have both the Paklite and the Pal, for the $ the PAL is the way to go. I also work in a large theatre and have a couple of PAL Onestars around with the rubberized body removed, so it is similar to the PAK. The difference is it can be dimmed from the lowest setting up, and even at the lowest setting (one above always on) it runs days on 1/2 used batteries. In either case they are handy little lights.

Sub_Umbra
RE Pak-Lite..."Has anyone run accross a review of this light anywhere?". We almost ran a review of this light. I helped the makers evaluate thier dreadful website and ended up with a white-LED pak-lite as a "thank You". You can see that we got as far as Beamshots and stopped there. We decided that the price-point of the light as against output, features and usability did not merit a review. Now, having said this I can give you this feedback:
1) They fit a particular niche very well. The offer very long runtimes from a common battery
2) They are perfect as low light level "look around" lights at up to about 4-5 yards. That makes them great for stage work, tent lighting, bedside etc.
3) If for some strange reason your like me and you need the smallest light with a box-shaped form factor, this light is it.
4) Attaching velcro to the battery allows many attachment options using hook/loop paradigm.
5) They're a family run business working off Grid- That appeals to me.
6) The Pak-lite family of lights seems to cover a lot of bases.
7) My guess is that they are indeed regulated (which probably is why they cost more than they should).
8) For the same money you could buy an ARC AAA, 3 Dorcy AAA's,a Photon-3 plus a Photon-2. None of which have the runtime but several of which have far brighter & better beam shapes and beam colors (Arc/Dorcy).
If it wasn't for my need for a box-shaped light, I would have replaced the Pak-lite with 3 Dorcy AAA's ( which BTW, are on thier 3rd month of evry-night use!).
Here's our review page> http://www.imagometrics.com/FLReviews/FLR.home.htm
just select "Beamshots" link. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

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Aten_Imago said:
7) My guess is that they are indeed regulated (which probably is why they cost more than they should).


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As I just said, your *guess* is incorrect.

I've examined and tested one, the details are above.

Otherwise I tend to agree, if you can get past the cost, it's an excellent solution to a niche market that many don't seem to understand.

Doug Owen

Thanks to everyone for the info. I'm much closer now to buying and smoking some parts!

Doug,
Thanks for the trimpot idea and the values.

Aten_Imago,
I've seen some really neat spring clips to hold 9v batts for hobbie projects.
One of the techies also mentioned that another reason that they liked the PL was because it didn't look enough like a light...to be stolen.

Thanks again

You guys gotta change your website. It scrolls slow on my home 2.26ghz and extremely slow on my work P3-500.

[ QUOTE ]
Aten_Imago said:
Here's our review page> http://www.imagometrics.com/FLReviews/FLR.home.htm
just select "Beamshots" link. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

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[ QUOTE ]
Aten_Imago said:
1) They fit a particular niche very well. The offer very long runtimes from a common battery

[/ QUOTE ]Actually that very long runtime depends on an expensive and somewhat exotic 9V lithium battery. With a normal 9V battery, runtime is much shorter because of voltage sag.
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2) They are perfect as low light level "look around" lights at up to about 4-5 yards. That makes them great for stage work, tent lighting, bedside etc.

[/ QUOTE ]I think 4-5 yards is a bit much in low mode. In high mode, you may as well use a CMG Infinity, or if you want long runtime, maybe a Tektite Trek Lithium or equivalent (3.6V lithium computer battery, direct drive).
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3) If for some strange reason your like me and you need the smallest light with a box-shaped form factor, this light is it.
4) Attaching velcro to the battery allows many attachment options using hook/loop paradigm.

[/ QUOTE ]Actually the Countycomm 2 coin cell light with the slide switch is more or less box shaped, is much smaller than a 9V battery, accepts velcro just fine, and also has enormous runtime if you fit it with a CR2032 cell instead of two CR2016's (brightness probably comparable to Paklite on low).
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5) They're a family run business working off Grid- That appeals to me.

[/ QUOTE ]Can't argue with this.
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6) The Pak-lite family of lights seems to cover a lot of bases.

[/ QUOTE ]Wasn't aware there was more than one model.
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7) My guess is that they are indeed regulated (which probably is why they cost more than they should).

[/ QUOTE ]Nope, resistor limited.
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8) For the same money you could buy an ARC AAA, 3 Dorcy AAA's,a Photon-3 plus a Photon-2. None of which have the runtime but several of which have far brighter & better beam shapes and beam colors (Arc/Dorcy).
If it wasn't for my need for a box-shaped light, I would have replaced the Pak-lite with 3 Dorcy AAA's ( which BTW, are on thier 3rd month of evry-night use!).

[/ QUOTE ]How about the PALite, the UKE 2AAA eLED (not really box shaped, but sort of rectangular), the Rigel Systems Starlight/Skylight series (continuously adjustable brightness), and probably some others.

So, Paul, you don't like the PacLite?

You object to the (fairly common) 9 Volt Li battery in number 1, then recommend an even more obscure one in number 2?

FWIW when I *tested* mine with a pretty dead nine volter (it read seven volts, under 1.2 Volts per cell) it worked pretty well on the low level, a bit over half the original current (at nine volts) as I recall. Calculations seem to bear this out (Vf notes in my notebook at 1 mA were 2.80 and 2.82 for my LEDs.

I still think it does a very good job of meeting it's design goals. Far better than most do, IMO.

Doug Owen

If you're willing to put up with exotic batteries, I think the Trek Lithium (also overpriced) is a more sensible application than the Paklite.

I have nothing against the Paklite concept, but I find its marketing somewhat annoying, the past behavior of its manufacturer to also be annoying, and the light itself to be ridiculously overpriced (OMG, they have a solid gold version now). Also, the "1/2 ounce" weight figure is misleading since it doesn't include the battery. When you include the battery (especially an alkaline), the Paklite is probably heavier than most 1AAA and maybe even some 1AA and 2AAA lights.

Also, a dead alkaline battery is one that's below 0.9 or even 0.7 volts per cell. 1.2 volts is midlife.

I was just struck by the contrast of 'Li bad, Li good'.

And while I agree that the Li battery is much lighter, that's precisely the point, right? The design goal for the light included light weight, long life and cold weather. They, IMO, scored. As for excessive profit, what engineering rule does that violate? For sure there are far more egregious examples right here on CPF. Most objections to the PacLite I've seen are either emotional or out of lack of experience.

This is a bit afield of the original intent, the poster wants to use weak 9 Volt alkalines. I bring the point of 'it meet's it's design goals' is all.

And while 7 Volts might be 'midlife' to some, at the sort of currents we're talking about it' more than 80% of the useful life, check the charts.

Anyway, on the original topic of 'I know a bunch of folks that *like and want* PacLites', I still think a clone is the call.

Doug Owen

Doug Owen said: Or, better still, a few hundred ohms (to limit maximum current) in series with a small trimpot of a say 5 or 10 K epoxied to the top of the battery clip (you can buy a very nice one from Digikey with very stout brass posts half an inch tall to protect the works for under a dollar)

OK, Doug, what is the Digikey part number? I can't find my digikey catalog & I don't quite know what to search for on the web...

I'll build my own small lights. I don't use a lot of 9v, but I go thru maybe 5 a year in smoke alarms or radio backup batteries. I can stick a couple of leds & a resistor on the 9v battery snap easily enough.
I'm in agreement that small quantity specialist flashlights do require a premium price in order to give a reasonable return on investment. It's not just engineering, but manufacture on a small scale is expensive compared to the economy of scale you get with really large volumns. We are all somewhat spoiled. All of the CPF 'manufacturers' are quite likely underpaid for their efforts....

Russ, I'd suggest using a small volume control pot rather than a trimpot. You can scrounge one out of an old handheld radio or something like that. The volume control (logarithmic) taper gives you a more natural-feeling brightness control.

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paulr said:
Russ, I'd suggest using a small volume control pot rather than a trimpot. You can scrounge one out of an old handheld radio or something like that. The volume control (logarithmic) taper gives you a more natural-feeling brightness control.

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I was also thinking of something a little easier to adjust than a trimpot for the techie light. Something like a thumbwheel pot would allow them to do a quick 'n easy level change from a brighter, rehearsal mode to a dimmer, performance mode.

Thanks for the idea paulr, I have several small pots around. At least some of them may be log tapir. Sub Umbra, I could use a part number for a thumbwheel pot, also.

OT?: I was actually interested in Dougs reference of the stout brass posts, however, for another project. I need some small pots for adjusting alternator output on a homemade generator. I plan to use a resistor voltage divider (this is 2 x CS130D Delco alts.) on the sense wire so that I can adjust the output. I'm hoping that I can run these in parallel without isolation, but I've already planned on using diodes. Individual adjustments are still worthwhile to get a better charge curve for deep cycle batteries. Does anyone know what the sense current might be? I'm thinking maybe 50ma. The non-pot splitter calls for a 2200 ohm 1/4w res. between ground & sense, 220 ohm res between sense & BAT term on alternator. I plan to series a thousand ohms with a pot & res in parallel, and use a 120 or 150 ohm resistor between sense & BAT.

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RussH said:
OK, Doug, what is the Digikey part number? I can't find my digikey catalog & I don't quite know what to search for on the web...



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968K

Doug Owen

You're right- my Boo Boo sorry /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/whoopin.gif