Newbie - Question about made in USA Lights

Great to finally step in the ring after over a year of observing. Does anyone want to share their opinion on the premium (if any) made in the USA lights should demand? Since there are fewer and fewer 100% US lights manufactured, I guess they don't demand enough of a premium to keep China from getting the manufacturing business. Bottom line - will you pay more for a USA light with similiar quality to an import? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif

Great username, brightidea - glad to have you here to share our burden. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/broke.gif

I have always tried to buy locally and made in the USA. I look for the country of origin and won't buy anything but inexpensive items from slave labor countries. I was disappointed to discover the StreamLight TT's were Chinese.

Hello and welcome!

I live in Australia, but I generally appreciate the "made in USA" label.

Don't know if I could pay more though, things are tight as is. However, I do look for quality, and if I see US made lights I expect higher quality, and I'm more likely to buy than cheaper lights made elsewhere, where the labour costs are way too small and the conditions are probably very bad.

Everyone is going Chinese. With significant margin in the top end lights - it only means the leaders want to pack on more profit. SureFire seems to be the best at hiding imported parts, etc., but they too are increasing foreign parts. I am pretty sure the verticle light/grip for the Colt M4 is Chinese. I am a staunch USA=Quality subscriber and would also like to see our troops carry 100% USA equipment.

Great to hear the thoughts of an Aussie regarding made in the USA. Just so you know I would also consider made in Australia to mean higher quality! Hey, does anyone know the words to Waltzing Matilda??

Waltzing Matilda
by Banjo Patterson

Oh there once was a swagman camped in the billabongs
Under the shade of a Coolibah tree
And he sang as he looked at the old billy boiling
Who'll come a waltzing Matilda with me

Who'll come a-waltzing Matilda my darling
Who'll come a-waltzing Matilda with me
Waltzing Matilda and leading a waterbag
Who'll come a-waltzing Matilda with me

Up came the jumbuck to drink at the waterhole
Up jumped the swagman and grabbed him in glee
And he sang as he put hime away in the tuckerbag
You'll come a-waltzing Matilda with me

Who'll come a-waltzing Matilda my darling
Who'll come a-waltzing Matilda with me
Waltzing Matilda and leading a waterbag
Who'll come a-waltzing Matilda with me

Up came the squatter a-riding his thoroughbred
Up came policemen one two three
Whose is the jumbuck you've got in the tuckerbag?
You'll come a-waltzing Matilda with me

Who'll come a-waltzing Matilda my darling
Who'll come a-waltzing Matilda with me
Waltzing Matilda and leading a waterbag
Who'll come a-waltzing Matilda with me

Up sprang the swagman and jumped in the waterhole
Drowning himself by the Coolibah
And his voice can be heard as it sings in the billabongs
Who'll come a-waltzing Matilda with me.

Oh, that was 1895. 1903 the "song" version was written:

Waltzing Matilda

by Marie Cowan

Once a jolly swagman camped by a billabong
Under the shade of a Coolibah tree
And he sang as he watched and waited till his billy boiled
You'll come a waltzing Matilda with me

Waltzing Matilda, Waltzing Matilda
You'll come a-waltzing Matilda with me
And he sang as he watched and waited til his billy boiled
You'll come a-waltzing Matilda with me

Down came a jumbuck to drink at that billabong
Up jumped the swagman and grabbed him with glee
And he sang as he shoved that jumbuck in his tuckerbag
You'll come a-waltzing Matilda with me

Waltzing Matilda, Waltzing Matilda
You'll come a-waltzing Matilda with me
And he sang as he watched and waited til his billy boiled
You'll come a-waltzing Matilda with me

Up rode the squatter mounted on his thoroughbred
Down came troopers one two three
Whose that jumbuck you've got in the tuckerbag?
You'll come a-waltzing Matilda with me

Waltzing Matilda, Waltzing Matilda
You'll come a-waltzing Matilda with me
And he sang as he watched and waited til his billy boiled
You'll come a-waltzing Matilda with me

Up jumped the swagman and sprang into the billabong
You'll never catch me alive said he
And his ghost may be heard as you pass by that billabong
You'll come a-waltzing Matilda with me.

Good on ya mate! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Well, talk about lights, did you know Lumileds has a factory here in Malaysia? Penang, Malaysia, to be exact. So your luxeon stars are made right here... wonder if M'sia is classified as a 'sweat-shop' country though? Hmm... i do know for a fact that electronics factories like Lumileds wouldn't run a sweat shop operation for sure...

Back on track, most of the time, I would say that something that carries the 'Made in US' label would be of a greater quality, but i have to admit that sometimes some of the clones that are made in China or such are quite decent quality too... Take the Nuwai range of lights for example, they're pretty good value for $, don't you think? My point, you ask? Well, truth is... i forgot the point I was trying to make... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Not to take this too far off topic, but over here in Europe not all US made things are considered the best quality, so don't let it get to your heads guys. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif Cars for instance. German cars would rank very high with most people over here - much higher than US cars. Now when it comes to flashlights it's certainly a different matter. In that respect US made is the only thing that really rocks. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buttrock.gif

Jan

The process of shifting the "real production" out of the
country is everywhere: For example there are some neat
padlocks from a german company named "Burg Wächter".
All the years they sold locks with the "Made in Germany"
sign on it - now some weeks ago I saw the new line
of padlocks in a shop and guess what: They changed the
sign to "Engineered in Germany"! So it seems they do
the design in germany and assemble it in some other
country (which even isn't named on the package).

But back to flashlights: If Surefire uses parts from other
countries I think there's no quality problem given that
the folks in the US do the QC. The same goes for other
companies: I trust products that are not made in a single
country if the company does its job in sorting out parts
that do not meet their quality standards.

If a product is completely made in a (let's say) "high
quality country" I certainly would pay more for it.
It just feels better. However: This forum is probably not the
right place for such a question as here are many people
who demand the very very best and are willing to pay
a fortune for it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/broke.gif

I don't necesarily equate Made in the USA with high quality. If it's not a small or specialised producer, it's often either more expensive, or lower quality if the price is the same. This to me seems to be about profits. Why pay an American worker $12 an hour, when that maker can pay someone in a smaller country in Asia that much a day? If they do pay the higher US pay rates, they will raise their prices to compesate.

Undark: Good point about the quality control. It happens a lot in the computer business, parts and even whole designs are farmed out to a third party company (usually offshore) to manufacture under contract. Designs and QC are usually done by the parent company under whose name the finished product will be sold.

Often this third party company will also be involved making a similar product of its own, and it is amazing to see how their own product compares against the one manufactured under contract - the latter often blows it away completely. It really makes you think "How do they make such great stuff for the other company when their own product isn't anything to write home about?". Not to knock them, but they CAN get it right when they have to... or MADE to /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Often, it's not so much about who does the assembly or the production, as who is enforcing the QC standards and doing the actual design/engineering/brainwork behind the product.

I do admire the way the US designed their lights aesthetically, but let's all face it, not all scientific discovery originates from the US. Even calculus and the decimal points was not invented in the US but rather from India and some countries like China and Russia. What makes you guys think that just because it is made in the US it would be better? Without maths who to do the engineering calculations? Who invented stealth technology? In case you are mislead, it is the Chinese. The US modified the parts and claimed "made in USA".

Just in case you guys get me wrong, I am not running down the US and glorifying the Chinese. Not at all, I am ashamed that the Chinese have no morale where business is concerned and I am very much envious of the US traditions and cultures. But rather, I was trying to remind all of you that being too big headed would only cause your views to be stagnant.

Generally the Chinese products are nothing to write about but it is because of the Chinese mind-set of doing things. You get your dollar's worth. Pay peanuts and you get monkey. If you pay them a premium they will deliver a premium product to you. As a photographer myself I have some certain knowledge about some brands of cameras and lenses. We think that Cosina (Chinese company) makes lousy cameras and lenses, but how many do know that your Nikon FM2 was OEM in China by Cosina?

I hope you get my point.

Just to add to where I stop. Many of your US branded fashion stuff are made in China and Timberland being one of them.

A products origin is not necesarily an indicator of its quality. The inherent quality will depend on design, material selection and adherence to tolerances and proper assembly of components. Some knock offs, regardless of origin, miss the mark because the design is not understood for its function but more for its form. If a potential subcontractor states, "Sure we can make that. What does it do?" , there is a chance that *it* might not perform as well as the one manufactured under the watchful eyes of those who designed it. The raw materials and quality of sub components are also very significant and not necessarily connected to a country of manufacture but sometimes they are. The same CNC machining center in California using the same CNC program will spit out a better part being machined from Alco Aluminium than say a sister CNC machine in India that is cutting a billet of locally melted coke cans.
THe "genetics" of a part are much more important than the geographic origin of its birth, IMHO.

I recall commenting in a thread last year that growing up with toys in the 50's and 60's that toys "Made in Japan" were inferior and borderline junk. I suspect that the only reason for this was the price point of the toys and the portion of the market that was open to the Japanese imports. This had no reflection on what *could* be made in Japan; merely what was being purchased and resold here in the US. By the '70's, Made in Japan implied a superiority in many markets such as cameras and small electronics.

In general, country of origin will mean less and less. Manufacturers working under ISO standards can be located anywhere and the location may be chosen due to cost of real estate, available labor, proximity to raw materials, market or transportation routes.

Another consideration regarding "made in USA" is that to bear this mark, something like 51% of the product, based on cost, must be domestic in origin. In the case of a fancily packaged POS, the packaging can represent 51% of the cost and you could end up, after unwrapping the item, with a part that was made by indentured orphans in some unpublicized third world country. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif

Alas, all of you are missing the main point of being "Made in America" as a term of quality. Domestic mfg. like Pelican, SureFire, StreamLite, etc. have to provide that enduring quality just to compete. By this I mean that w/o quality initiatives like ISO9001, 6 Sigma, Malcolm Baldridge, Lean Mfg conditions, America could never compete against 'cheapy' or economy based product from overseas. For those of you from the older generation can relate to the 'Good Housekeeping' seal. It was a perceived measure of quality and integrity. So be it with the 'Made in USA' lable found on many of the domestic flashlights produced by the companies mentioned above. Since offshore companies do not have to subscribe to this initiatives, yes you are taking a chance on obtaining sub-standard product. But you can sure bet that the reputation of such domestic mfg is not going to be tarnished by offering an off-shore brand that does not meet the tight quality standards of that company. So to compete in this dog-eat-dog mantra of producing flashlights, those mfg's sometimes need to go off shore. Its the reality driven by you, the consumer, demanding low prices on better products. Its true you pay more for a 'Made in USA' product, but what your paying for is all those quality initiatives that keeps the US product at its best quality.

"Its true you pay more for a 'Made in USA' product, but what your paying for is all those quality initiatives that keeps the US product at its best quality.

Certainly these are part of the cost but so too are workman's comp and other labor burden elements, liability insurance, and other elements of overhead which are not a value added or intrinsic in the finished good, per se. I do feel you hit on a key element in pointing out the consumer's demand for low or discounted prices. When it comes to domestic manufacture, our industries have a considerable expense in "internalizing externalities" in terms of wast management, air quality and all kinds of considerations which are not necessarily a cost of doing business off shore. Again, I am not saying that the factories shouldn't run a *clean* shop but the quality of the product is not directly effected by how the chemicals used to produce it are handled, for instance. As responsible citizens of the planet, we need to be willing to pay for "proper" manufacture but typically, this is not a consideration due to understandable ignorance possibly coupled with apathy.

The mere cost of maintaining a warranty program can often preclude a domestic products acceptance in a market open to off shore manufacture. An import bought off the internet has an unfair advantage in a sense compared to a product on a shelf in a state where consumer protection has been taken to a great extreme. There are many costs that are not part and parcel of the actual product and of course this topic is considerably more complex and not necessarily open to legitimate general and broad based comments which would apply across the board.

I think it's safe to say that the rules of manufacture and cost of doing business will vary from country to country beyond the costs of raw material and components used.Many of these costs are significant and purely "overhead", having nothing to do with the final product in terms of its intrinsic quality. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif

Hey Broadbill,

From all those names of the quality initiatives you mentioned, it almost sounds like you work at the same place I do! You wouldn't be in Central Texas would you?

I think Broadbill hit it. Working in the electronics manufacturing business, I'm hit everyday with the very quality programs mentioned. Not to say that goods manufactured in the "low cost" areas of the world are bad quality...quite the opposite. The only way domestic manufacturers can compete is by building a first class product that hopefully enough people will be willing to pay the premium for.

Bindibadgi - Forgot to say thanks for the Waltzing Matilda lyrics. I used to work with a west-side Aussie who used to belt it out after a few beers!!

- brightidea

lol. A few too many methinks. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif