4sevens Maelstrom X10 Review with OTF lumens.

[scot]

Thru-out the 90's my main 'go to' light that I used while working on fuel barges in Alaska was an original SF 6P. It was a twisty, and the lock out tailcap wasn't invented yet. What a light!! I had the sun in the palm of my hand!!!
The twisty was NEVER a problem, simple to use, bomb proof. Can't wait for my X10 to arrive, I'll look at it like an original 6P on steroids, and maybe a bit more versatile too.
Being a twisty is the least of my worries.

 

[ti-force]

As others have stated, thank you for the review. It was both your review, and selfbuilt's, that pushed me over the edge to pick one up.

All your hard work testing the X10 in different ways is appreciated. Very informative.

Thanks guys . I'm glad you enjoyed it.

 

[jhc37013]

Very cool review I like the hand as the cooling method. :twothumbs

 

[bigchelis]

Do you have a picture of this lights XM-L/Star that you can post please.

I'm trying to see how easy it would be to put a warm XM-L in there.

BigC

 

[ti-force]

Very cool review I like the hand as the cooling method. :twothumbs

Thanks :thumbsup:

Do you have a picture of this lights XM-L/Star that you can post please.

I'm trying to see how easy it would be to put a warm XM-L in there.

BigC

I don't, but I'll look at the light later this evening and see how difficult it would be to get that picture. If it's glued and the factory seal has to be broken to view this I can't help you; I'm not allowed to modify or damage test lights that are sent to me for review because they have to be sent back in the same condition as they were received.

 

[Volvo]

Tnx for a nice review.

I really like the shape of the new maelstrom light´s. :naughty:

 

[flame2000]

One thing I hate about these lights is having to tighten the tailcap in order to use the light continuoulsy, that is such a ridiculous design. I wouldnt buy one of these lights because of that design alone.

Add me to your list of those who doesn't like the UI. I find the operation kind of odd.
Pardon my ignorance, since this is a simple 2 mode light, can someone explain to me the reason why the UI was made this way instead of just twisting the head for high or low, coupled with a forward clicky just like the Jetbeam BA20 simple UI?

But I do light the outlook of the light!

 

[Nokoff]

ti-force, that looks to be well thought-out testing, thanks for the review and time spent.

....only, does the X10 with random emitters warrant or deserve all this hard work since David at 4Sevens had said the emitters would vary, either U2 or T6, and neither his staff nor customers could know or choose.

He claims the X10 will meet or exceed factory specs, I think consumers get that, but the expectation that it will perform like yours did, how would we know?

 

[jhc37013]

David mentioned in another thread that the review light's are T6 so you can expect these specs to meet or exceed what you get.

 

[Nokoff]

ti-force, that looks to be well thought-out testing, thanks for the review and time spent.

I know you've done other threads for 4Sevens flashlights....only, does the Maelstrom X10 with random emitters warrant or deserve all this hard work?.... since David at 4Sevens had said the emitters would vary, either U2 or T6, and neither his staff nor customers could know or choose.

He claims the X10 will meet or exceed factory specs, I think consumers get that blanket statement, we've all heard it before, but the expectation that it will perform like yours did, how would we know?

 

[Bass]

ti-force - another excellent review and some great photos! There is obviously lots of hard work in your review but it was worth it :thumbsup:

I have an S12, which is quite good; otherwise I would look closer at the X10.

Thanks again!

 

[PayBack]

@PayBack, I am afraid I don't quite understand what you meant about the batteries. I am using the first green version for the S12 and haven't encountered any issues with the batteries. Granted, I did not run it for prolonged periods of time to notice any issues with them. Are there any reported issues with the batteries from 4Sevens? Why the newer blue batteries now? Please PM me to avoid dragging this thread into an off-topic exchange between us.

Sorry just replying here to clarify for anyone else who didn't understand what I meant.. I have no problem with the batteries, just the fact they're never available from 4Sevens (not for the S12 anyway) and thus I'd be concerned about not being able to get more. I like the format and capacity, but would like more makers to use it before I'd feel safe investing in it.

 

[ti-force]

ti-force, that looks to be well thought-out testing, thanks for the review and time spent.

I know you've done other threads for 4Sevens flashlights....only, does the Maelstrom X10 with random emitters warrant or deserve all this hard work?.... since David at 4Sevens had said the emitters would vary, either U2 or T6, and neither his staff nor customers could know or choose.

He claims the X10 will meet or exceed factory specs, I think consumers get that blanket statement, we've all heard it before, but the expectation that it will perform like yours did, how would we know?

Nokoff,

I understand what you're asking, and to answer your question, yes I think it was worth all of my hard work. Here's why I feel this way- David has stated in another thread that all X10 review lights have the T6 flux bin emitters in them, so we know my sample doesn't have the higher U2 flux binned emitter in it. But hypothetically speaking, let's say that my sample did have a U2 flux binned XM-L emitter in it. Now you would most certainly assume that my sample would be brighter than all X10's that come/came equipped with a T6 flux binned, XM-L emitter, but that's not the case. You see the datasheet that LED manufacturers provide are really only a guide or an average of what their testing has shown. What I mean by that is that you will have some T6 flux binned XM-L emitters that are brighter than other T6 flux binned emitters, and it's possible that some of the brightest T6 flux binned (from this point forward referred to as simply FB) emitters will be brighter than some U2 FB emitters. There are lots of variables to start with. This is just emitter variables and not even getting into driver component variables that cause one driver to drive an emitter harder than another, etc., etc.

But let's say all things are equal and you have two X10's side by side. One with a T6 FB emitter and the other with a U2 FB emitter. Let's say that both emitters perform at the exactly the average of what Cree states in their datasheet for the XM-L emitter. They show roughly a 7% gain in luminous flux from the T6 FB to the U2 FB. Now let's say that the T6 sample makes 800 out the front lumens without any thermal regulation. 800 + 7% = 856 lumens. I'm not going to go so far as to say that no person could visibly see the difference in brightness between these two lights being compared side by side, but I'm going to say that you're very good if you can see this difference in output with nothing more than your naked eyes. If you were looking at a 56 lumen increase on a light that only had 50 lumens to begin with, you would most certainly notice the increase, but a 56 lumen increase on a light that already makes 800 lumens would be nearly, if not impossible for the human eye to detect. You have to understand that the equipment I use for this type of testing is very sensitive. I can accurately measure moonlight mode with 4sevens lights and get a .2 lumen reading on a light that they state provides .2 lumens of light, but that doesn't mean you can tell with your naked eyes that it's only creating .2 lumens of light.

So I said all that to say that I don't think anyone who's interested in one of these lights will be disappointed with the light or its output if they purchase one, provided the light is not defective in some form or fashion, and if it is, send it in and make use of the 10 year warranty that 4sevens provides on their lights.

And one more thing that I feel makes my time spent testing worth it is the fact that it doesn't really matter which flux bin emitter you get, or how bright your emitter is within its flux binning, if you keep the light cool like I did with my freezer pack method, then in less than 10 minutes into the runtime it will make roughly 50% more OTF lumens than the same light would without any external cooling at all with an air temperature of roughly 74 degrees F.

 

[ti-force]

ti-force - another excellent review and some great photos! There is obviously lots of hard work in your review but it was worth it :thumbsup:

I have an S12, which is quite good; otherwise I would look closer at the X10.

Thanks again!

Thank you, my friend. Say uh, you wouldn't happen to have performed any of your beautiful photography on your S12, would you? I could use an S12 image or two in the first post of this thread since I don't have any. If you haven't, don't bother going through any trouble for that purpose alone.

 

[badtziscool]

Thanks for the kind words everyone; It's appreciated, and I'm glad you've found my review interesting .








Thanks BigC and GeoBruin! I'll do my best to take lux measurements of the X10 soon. The problem is that I don't really have a good place to test @ 5 meters . GeoBruin, unfortunately I don't have a TK35, so I can't compare reflector size of the X10 to that of the TK35 for you.








Thanks for the kind words, Selfbuilt. Using a fan while testing lights that are not thermally regulated is definitely a good idea, but my reasoning for the freezer pack method was simply to show what the light is capable of if you can keep it cool enough. The hand heat sinking method was done because it's commonly implemented during actual use by many here on the forum, and the 'no additional cooling' method was used to show the lower end of this lights output, and could easily represent the output of the light if someone where to sit the light on a stand, etc.,and use the light hands free, although I'm sure my two fingers were pulling some heat from the light during use so it's not exact. And the 'normal' mode is the mode I think most will be holding the light when in actual use, but unfortunately I didn't test the S12 using that method......

If I had more time I'd test this light using a fan, but I simply don't have time; at the moment I'm quickly falling behind on reviews of other lights that I've committed my time to.







Your question about the freezer pack method is a very good question, and I'll do my best to answer that for you. As I'm sure you're aware, both the S12 and X10 have thermal regulation (and current regulation). This works because the light is designed to deliver a set amount of current until the light reaches a predetermined temperature (usually well below the thermal limit of any component used in the light). When said temperature is reached, drive current to the emitter is reduced to gain a reduction in operating temperature. If you've noticed the spikes in some of my lumen graphs, that's what's happening at those points. The light throttles current back to cool the light, which in turn causes a slight drop in lumen output until the light's temperature is reduced enough to protect the light, then current is reapplied until it reaches the predetermined temperature again, then the light repeats the process all over again.

When using the freezer pack method, the light doesn't heat up enough to require a reduction in drive current to cool the light because the freezer pack is keeping the light below the predetermined cutout temperature. Because of this the lights driver delivers the max predetermined amount of current to the emitter. Consequently this causes the battery to deplete quicker because the light is consuming more energy from a source that has a limited amount of energy until it needs to be recharged. Now to explain the difference between both lights during the freezer pack method. As you know the S12 uses the SST-90 emitter and the X10 uses the new XM-L emitter. Well the XM-L is more efficient than the SST-90 emitter, therefore it produces more light output for a given, and equal amount of drive current, but it's limited to 3A max drive current while the SST-90 is limited to 8 or 9A of drive current if memory serves me correctly. These emitters can be, and have been driven harder by individuals who want the most light they can get from the emitter, but that's another topic for another thread.

Anyhow the SST-90 is being driven harder than the XM-L to produce its highest output. I believe I've read reports from individuals stating in the 5A range at max drive current, but I'm not certain about that. I do know that the XM-L is being driven at less than 3A drive current, and if I had to guess, I'd guess in the 2.6A range. Now even if the XM-L were driven at 2.5A and the SST-90 were driven at 5A (twice the current), you still couldn't guess that the XM-L light would run twice as long because it's more complicated than that because of emitter voltage forward differences between the two emitters (volts x amps = watts), and the higher the emitter voltage forward, the more energy it consumes from the battery and the quicker the battery will be depleted. So you would have to take voltage and current measurements simultaneously to actually calculate how much power or wattage each different emitter is consuming, but we don't really have to know that exactly because we know that the SST-90 is consuming more, and it shows by its drop in output on the lumen output graph.

So after that long, drawn out response ....haha..... the reason you see the S12 dropping in lumen output quicker than the X10 during the freezer pack method is because of the S12 depletes the battery quicker than the X10 does because they're both being driven at the max predetermined amount of drive current. So in the freezer pack method, the output is no longer limited or decreased because of temperature limitations, but because of battery capacity limitations. Both batteries (X10 only and S12 batteries) are very close in capacity, so the one that drains the battery capacity at a quicker rate will dim quicker than the other. Hope this is accurate, and helps you better understand what's going on. Sorry for the drawn out way of explaining....:tired:lol...

Awesome explanation. I understand it now. I forgot that the S12 is being driven at 5A whereas the X10 is being driven at almost half that, and I forgot to consider the power supply. I guess with unlimited power supply the behavior would be different, but we're talking about a power source that can be depleted and experiences voltage sag as it is drained.

And I just now realize that even though the X10 seems like the better bargain with better efficiency, almost equal output, and lower price, the S12 would be the better choice if one was to bypass the safety features and drive it as hard as it can.

 

[Skylumen]

+1

Awesome explanation. I understand it now. I forgot that the S12 is being driven at 5A whereas the X10 is being driven at almost half that, and I forgot to consider the power supply. I guess with unlimited power supply the behavior would be different, but we're talking about a power source that can be depleted and experiences voltage sag as it is drained.

And I just now realize that even though the X10 seems like the better bargain with better efficiency, almost equal output, and lower price, the S12 would be the better choice if one was to bypass the safety features and drive it as hard as it can.

 

[Got Lumens?]

Thanks for the kind words everyone; It's appreciated, and I'm glad you've found my review interesting .

Thanks BigC and GeoBruin! I'll do my best to take lux measurements of the X10 soon. The problem is that I don't really have a good place to test @ 5 meters . GeoBruin, unfortunately I don't have a TK35, so I can't compare reflector size of the X10 to that of the TK35 for you.

Ti-Force, Let me know if Vinny sends you his, I would gladly send mine back to you also to do that comparison, and take some photos. Also I have a TK-35 that could go with it.

Big C,
My Tk-35s reflector diameter is 0.5mm larger in diameter and ~4mm deeper than my S12. I am pretty sure the parabolas are slightly different between the S12 and X10, but size wise should be about the same, that is what I am seeing in the photos.
GL

 

[Skylumen]

I will send TI-Force my brightest, coolest, and modded S12. I will also send him my X10 with thermal regulation deactivated. I am just waiting for the X10 to arrive first though.

 

[jhc37013]

I will send TI-Force my brightest, coolest, and modded S12. I will also send him my X10 with thermal regulation deactivated. I am just waiting for the X10 to arrive first though.

So I'm guessing heat will be the deciding factor in this contest?

 

[Skylumen]

So I'm guessing heat will be the deciding factor in this contest?

This is not a contest...the tests will just provide us with interesting facts for flashaholics.