742 Torch Lumens! Most beautiful runtime curve. NEOFAB Legion II MC-E review added

[ichoderso]

Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!

Updated:
OP reflector has been test. The donut hole was reduced to the level of M1X.
Users can choose their favorite reflector, or purchase both of them.

Beamshots

 

[neoseikan]

Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!

Beamshots

I will do it when the batteries are charged.
This time, I also reduced the current from 3A to 2.8A, for a longer runtime.

 

[TITAN1833]

Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!

Yes, it's a balancing act, but Legion II is all about throw, not balance
On top of that, this isn't a P7. It's pretty much uncharted territory as far as reflectors are concerned.

Em I'm not sure the L2 is just all about throw,I think initially it was but I think that was optimistic.I believe now it will be a combination of the two flood/throw we will see

 

[evenchaos]

Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!

I will do it when the batteries are charged.
This time, I also reduced the current from 3A to 2.8A, for a longer runtime.

Boo .... c'mon, I would say crack it up higher rather than cutting it lower. One can always use a level in-between max & min if runtime is an issue. Personally, I would have rather seen something like 3.4A for the highest setting. How about letting the peak current be user configurable .

 

[ichoderso]

Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!

Boo .... c'mon, I would say crack it up higher rather than cutting it lower. One can always use a level in-between max & min if runtime is an issue. Personally, I would have rather seen something like 3.4A for the highest setting. How about letting the peak current be user configurable .

YES!!!!

There are enough around 2A driven P7/MC-E lights on the market (Jetbeam, Wolfeyes, Dereelight...)

We need full power

I have some direct drive P7/MC-E lights at around 3-4A with fresh cells.this is no problem with good heatsinking and /or for short times!!

Jens

 

[neoseikan]

Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!

One thing I am afraid of is:
No doubt, CPFers, or other flashaholics, will run the light at the max level for 2 hours, to see it's runtime. This might hurt the LED.
I don't want to see it happen. so, I used the official max current value: 2800mA.

YES!!!!

There are enough around 2A driven P7/MC-E lights on the market (Jetbeam, Wolfeyes, Dereelight...)

We need full power

I have some direct drive P7/MC-E lights at around 3-4A with fresh cells.this is no problem with good heatsinking and /or for short times!!

Jens

 

[orcinus]

Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!

One thing I am afraid of is:
No doubt, CPFers, or other flashaholics, will run the light at the max level for 2 hours, to see it's runtime. This might hurt the LED.
I don't want to see it happen. so, I used the official max current value: 2800mA.

How about a time-limited burst mode, then?
Something similar to what the Ra Clicky does.

 

[TITAN1833]

Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!

How about a time-limited burst mode, then?
Something similar to what the Ra Clicky does.

Yes that's a good idea,or maybe just a warning and a disclaimer if used on max for long periods should surfice IMO.

my vote is to keep the 3+Amps, power should be going up not down in these kind of lights :devil:

 

[ichoderso]

Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!

How about a time-limited burst mode, then?
Something similar to what the Ra Clicky does.

+1:twothumbs
time limited or temperature controlled....

 

[orcinus]

Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!

+1:twothumbs
time limited or temperature controlled....

Thermal control would probably require changes in the driver (unless the MCU has a built-in sensor already). A time limit would just be a matter of software changes.

 

[neoseikan]

Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!

Thermal control would probably require changes in the driver (unless the MCU has a built-in sensor already). A time limit would just be a matter of software changes.

I think there is something need to be explained:

1- Some drivers have "heat-warning", in fact, they are just out of work when the temperature is too high. Legion2's driver doesn't have any problem with a 2 hour and 3A output.

2- It's impossible for a driver (and its MCU) to know how hot the LED is, especially the internal temperature, or whether the LED can bear the heat.

3- Supposed I still provide 3A or 3.1A output, there isn't real need to set the automatic time limit or temperature limit. I don't recommend running at max for 2 hours, but if people know that a long full power output might hurt the LED, they can decide use it or not, and for how long.

 

[orcinus]

Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!

2- It's impossible for a driver (and its MCU) to know how hot the LED is, especially the internal temperature, or whether the LED can bear the heat.

That's true, but there's a way around it - calibration. The reported driver temperature is compared with the temperature measured near the emitter and the appropriate "conversion rate" determined. Of course, the response then depends on the time it takes for the heat to get conducted through the heat sink to the driver (and the driver itself heats up the sink as well), so it can never be accurate, but it can still "kill" the power if things start getting too hot too quickly.

 

[evenchaos]

Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!

3- Supposed I still provide 3A or 3.1A output, there isn't real need to set the automatic time limit or temperature limit. I don't recommend running at max for 2 hours, but if people know that a long full power output might hurt the LED, they can decide use it or not, and for how long.

How is the max current set? Do you need to change a resistor, is there a trimpot, is it done in firmware or something else?

Ideally, it would be great if it was user configurable (e.g. trimpot or jumper) - that way those willing to take a chance with the emitter can do so, while everyone else will get conservative values. This would also be great for using alternate emitters in the future once they become available.

If that is not possible, then maybe you could set it at purchase time - offer "unsafe" levels as an option with adequate warning to CPFers while everyone else will get the safe 2.8A limit.

BTW, look at the Q5/R2 led lights - its max current rating is 1A but most of the good ones drive it at 1.2A+

I would even be interested to see it driven at 4.0A (1.0A per emitter, so that would be the same as a safe level for a single die emitter) if the heatsinking was adequate enough, though something like the Zebralight timed turbo mode would really be necessary then. :naughty:

 

[neoseikan]

Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!

To set the current, I need change a resistor.
It's also my idea that let users choose the current.

How is the max current set? Do you need to change a resistor, is there a trimpot, is it done in firmware or something else?

Ideally, it would be great if it was user configurable (e.g. trimpot or jumper) - that way those willing to take a chance with the emitter can do so, while everyone else will get conservative values. This would also be great for using alternate emitters in the future once they become available.

If that is not possible, then maybe you could set it at purchase time - offer "unsafe" levels as an option with adequate warning to CPFers while everyone else will get the safe 2.8A limit.

BTW, look at the Q5/R2 led lights - its max current rating is 1A but most of the good ones drive it at 1.2A+

I would even be interested to see it driven at 4.0A (1.0A per emitter, so that would be the same as a safe level for a single die emitter) if the heatsinking was adequate enough, though something like the Zebralight timed turbo mode would really be necessary then. :naughty:

 

[wbp]

Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!

I think there is a liability issue here for NeoFab. It's way too easy to damage the LED by overheating it. Once the phosphor is burned, the output drops a lot. For example, right now I have an MC-E that puts out less than 500 lumens at 2800ma, and it shows no physical sign of damage. The LED's output spectra shows that the phosphor is damaged, but you need very expensive equipment to be able to see that ($9K worth).

I know all you hot dogs :wave: want as much output as you can get, but if it were me I would not be willing to sell a light that can be damaged by simply running it too long on high. I know some of them would come back with warranty claims caused by the owner not paying attention to the warning.

If NeoFab can figure out an algorithm for controlling the burst time that prevents damage to the LED, that might be a workable solution. It's also possible to add a thermal sensor to the die, I have some Ostar's that have thermistors installed (it's an option from Osram). All of this adds development time and expense, and raises the price of the light...

William

 

[easilyled]

Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!

I think there is a liability issue here for NeoFab. It's way too easy to damage the LED by overheating it. Once the phosphor is burned, the output drops a lot. For example, right now I have an MC-E that puts out less than 500 lumens at 2800ma, and it shows no physical sign of damage. The LED's output spectra shows that the phosphor is damaged, but you need very expensive equipment to be able to see that ($9K worth).

I know all you hot dogs :wave: want as much output as you can get, but if it were me I would not be willing to sell a light that can be damaged by simply running it too long on high. I know some of them would come back with warranty claims caused by the owner not paying attention to the warning.

If NeoFab can figure out an algorithm for controlling the burst time that prevents damage to the LED, that might be a workable solution. It's also possible to add a thermal sensor to the die, I have some Ostar's that have thermistors installed (it's an option from Osram). All of this adds development time and expense, and raises the price of the light...

William

There are very few lights out there that automatically shut down or step down once they're in danger of damaging the emitters/drivers
due to excess heat building up.

I think its up to us to use some common sense and not run on full power for too long when we feel the light heating up.

If the worst happens and the emitter is damaged to the extent that the output is obviously compromised,
then we can always pay to have the emitter replaced. The liability should be on the customer, if the cause is overuse on high mode.

If its not obvious, and the user doesn't notice it, then it won't be discovered so from the user's point of view, it doesn't matter.

 

[PhantomPhoton]

Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!

...
I used the official max current value: 2800mA.

:thumbsdow

 

[Alan B]

Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!

One thing I am afraid of is:
No doubt, CPFers, or other flashaholics, will run the light at the max level for 2 hours, to see it's runtime. This might hurt the LED.
I don't want to see it happen. so, I used the official max current value: 2800mA.

I think there is something need to be explained:

1- Some drivers have "heat-warning", in fact, they are just out of work when the temperature is too high. Legion2's driver doesn't have any problem with a 2 hour and 3A output.

2- It's impossible for a driver (and its MCU) to know how hot the LED is, especially the internal temperature, or whether the LED can bear the heat.

3- Supposed I still provide 3A or 3.1A output, there isn't real need to set the automatic time limit or temperature limit. I don't recommend running at max for 2 hours, but if people know that a long full power output might hurt the LED, they can decide use it or not, and for how long.

Nice project!

The specs for the LED are a certain current at a certain temperature on the heatsink. Even 2800 mA is not okay at high temperature. Some flashlights will overheat if run at max for long periods of time with fresh batteries and no cooling. What happens if one gets turned on packed in a suitcase? Alkaline power is not likely to cause a major problem, but Lithium?

Sensing temperature on the heatsink and reducing power is the safest design. M@g does this in many or most of their LEDs. It doesn't have to be perfectly accurate. Allowing a Li-Ion flashlight to get really hot and heat up the batteries till they is a bad idea. Especially if sold to the general public. With three 18650's. Think of the news headlines...

The second choice would be to use a timer to drop off the highest levels to a long term safe level. This does not really solve the flashlight in a suitcase problem, however.

 

[electric sheep]

Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!

My Tikka XP has a simple resistor under the star that i presume increases resistance with increasing temp?

 

[wbp]

Re: NEOFAB Legion II, the powerful MC-E light &COMP with M1X, pic heavy!

There are very few lights out there that automatically shut down or step down once they're in danger of damaging the emitters/drivers due to excess heat building up.

I think its up to us to use some common sense and not run on full power for too long when we feel the light heating up.

If the worst happens and the emitter is damaged to the extent that the output is obviously compromised, then we can always pay to have the emitter replaced. The liability should be on the customer, if the cause is overuse on high mode.

If its not obvious, and the user doesn't notice it, then it won't be discovered so from the user's point of view, it doesn't matter.

This makes no sense at all! I do not know of ANY commercially available lights that are overdriven, or driven beyond the specs for the LED. The idea that the consumer should be "trusted" to not run a light with an overdriven LED for too long (as if the consumer would even know what that is) is absurd. The engineering behind a commercial product has to be to try make it safe and reliable for all users.

If you want to sell a product like this I would have to ask how you expect to have a viable business model.

If the purchaser wants to modify the light, at their own risk and with the understanding that this completely voids the warranty that's another story...

William