About Surefire...

[joema]

...I'm wondering what makes surefire worth its price tag. Is the build quality that much nicer?...I've never owned a Surefire before, and frankly, I dont think I can afford it. But should I save for one to try out?...

This is easier to understand if you consider Surefire is simply another manufacturer at the upper echelon of their product.

There are many different products (watches, knives, binoculars, cameras) where a higher end manufacturer makes more expensive examples. Is a Rolex watch (or even a Seiko) worth the money if a Timex keeps equal time? Is a Spyderco knife worth it, if a less expensive knife cuts as well?

Higher end products have attributes their buyers find worthwhile. Some of those might be truly different (in a better way) than less expensive alternatives. Sometimes you're just paying for the name. Sometimes it's a mixture and you can't really tell.

Surefire lights have a very rugged, tool-like feel. They feel like they could knock around the bottom of a dirty, oily tool box for years, and would still work. Many other lights don't have this same aesthetic feel, yet may fulfill a particular need quite well.

Surefire typically makes design decisions based on practical need, not meeting marketing specifications. E.g, they could get a few more lumens by shortening run time, or get higher lux numbers with a narrow beam. But they don't do this.

Surefire isn't the only manufacturer of high end lights, and there are other alternatives. Surefire doggedly sticks with non-rechargeable CR123A batteries for much of the product line, so many consider that a limitation.

Re can't afford a Surefire, the G2-LED retail price is $65, so it's not much more expensive than some Fenix lights.

 

[cfromc]

One thing to also consider: I've been buying a lot of Surefires since joining CPF, probably over 10 this year (I've sold a couple also) and I've contacted SF customer assistance 3 times. One time my clip, on my used C3 that I just bought, broke (partially my fault). The second time I called about a lamp that had an off-center bulb, and the last time I wanted to BUY the grip rings for an M3. Each time the SF rep asked for my name, verified my address and sent me out a brand new part for FREE, no questions asked. I can't tell you how much I appreciate not having to jump through hoops to get warranty/customer service. The phone calls were relatively quick, the part and shipping was free and the reps were nice. What a welcome change from the normal "sit on hold for 30 minutes, hope for the best" customer service that most companies give. Another thing to consider is the longevity of the light, I believe a Surefire is basically a lifetime light that I could see using in 10, 20, 30 years, whereas most products are not. Also, if my needs or tastes change I can sell the Surefires without much of a loss. These three benefits have nothing directly to do with the operation of the lights but are things to be considered when comparing Surefire to other brands.

 

[Windscale]

It all depends on one's way of thinking. If the idea is to save up for one light intending to use it as a kind of lifetime companion, then SF is probably the best bet. But make sure you get their latest offering, this is, those with Cree. SF is way ahead with quality, but way behind with technology.

If one were to get a few lights to play with for about the same amount of money and wanted the latest LEDs, then go for Fenix or UF. These are inferior in built quality, but more advanced in terms of technology.

If you are, or intended to become, a flashaholic, you will inevitably save up for both! Good luck! Guard your money!

 

[Size15's]

SF is way ahead with quality, but way behind with technology.

I understand that you likely intended the remark from the perspective that SureFire is slower to bring products featuring the latest 'new' LED to it's retail market compared to the likes of Fenix.
In which case it would be far more appropriate to say just that.

It is simply not the case that SureFire is 'behind with technology' - it is the case that SureFire's retail products are manufactured in significantly larger quantities and sold to significantly wider market. As a result it is not viable to change the LED each time a new LED is released.
There is a lot to be said for some stability and longevity of products - both in terms of R&D and production - especially when a lifetime guarantee of product support is part of the service.

It is important to understand that the products SureFire decides it can retail are but a fraction of the work SureFire does. CPF is not SureFire market for bleeding edge technology products, unlike other manufacturers for which CPF is a very important source of sales.

It is often only by accident that CPF gets to see a glimpse into what I consider the real work SureFire is doing with illumination technology - flashlights that make the very hairs on the back of your neck stand on end.

Al

 

[seery]

...flashlights that make the very hairs on the back of your neck stand on end.

Al

Arghhh!!! Just what I need...another sleepless night. Did you have to go and tease us like that Al???

 

[lightr07]

Personally price wasn't a factor as long as quality was good. I got a G2 and Quality was good... Outstanding. So like others i got the bug and now have 7 of them going on 8 in this coming month.

Many people say "But they are behind with technology!" when that is somewhat the case but as Size15 said its not viable to change the product everytime a new LED comes out. Fenix can do this because there market is significantly smaller and they also don't have any Government orders to fill (i.e alot more things to do with no extra time to do them) and changing the LED in a product when a new LED type comes out would cause a slow-down and alot of unneeded cost for the government to upgrade if they decided to do so.

So really for me the warranty, polite customer service, Build quality (Try taking a KROMA into a Machine shop and get an estimate for that machining or get an estimate for the machining on -ANY- surefire light for that matter, Trust me it won't be cheap) plus the modularity of parts (I can take the KL1 off my E1L and put it on my E2D along with the clicky on my E1L and it'll work just like an E2L but it'll say "E2D" and will be a mess of black HA-III and HA-III olive drab ) Is very appealing when your depending on your lights to work when you need them. And as mentioned by others the ablity to see the light still in operation in 10-20 years is also appealing and also offsets the price for me. (I mean do a search here on CPF and you'll see many users still have older SureFire model's that still function like they did day one.)

For many the customer service is all they need. As mentioned when i've called they've been VERY helpful, I've always had my call answered within 5 minutes.

So all of that combined is what turned me onto surefire and what keeps me a customer today (The 12th of September will be the 1 year anniversary of getting my very first surefire! A tan G2 that is still on its first P60 )

 

[BBL]

Some time ago, same topic ...

Why do Surefires cost so much?

reasons:
- made in usa: high labor costs
- high markup: the retailers _must_ stay above certain prices by contract
- unefficient construction, unnecesary cnc-operations
- expensive r&d
- high quality and construction
- relatively low number production runs
- they are surefire
- the customers pay those prices (especially the us gvt.)

i think thats it

 

[Size15's]

Arghhh!!! Just what I need...another sleepless night. Did you have to go and tease us like that Al???

I'm talking about when PK hosted CPF Parties at SHOT Shows and showed us the "MiniBeast" (for one example)... perhaps it was the alcohol :thinking: :shrug:

 

[EricMack]

I understand that you likely intended the remark from the perspective that SureFire is slower to bring products featuring the latest 'new' LED to it's retail market compared to the likes of Fenix.
In which case it would be far more appropriate to say just that.

It is simply not the case that SureFire is 'behind with technology' - it is the case that SureFire's retail products are manufactured in significantly larger quantities and sold to significantly wider market. As a result it is not viable to change the LED each time a new LED is released.
There is a lot to be said for some stability and longevity of products - both in terms of R&D and production - especially when a lifetime guarantee of product support is part of the service.

It is important to understand that the products SureFire decides it can retail are but a fraction of the work SureFire does. CPF is not SureFire market for bleeding edge technology products, unlike other manufacturers for which CPF is a very important source of sales.

It is often only by accident that CPF gets to see a glimpse into what I consider the real work SureFire is doing with illumination technology - flashlights that make the very hairs on the back of your neck stand on end.

Al

This should be a sticky!!! Very well stated, Al. :thumbsup:

 

[xiaowenzu]

Going by what you are saying, if a Fenix was made in the USA, it would cost far more than a Surefire, so would that make it better than a Surefie?

It would cost less because the quality of materials used in the construction is significantly cheaper. :thumbsup:

 

[xiaowenzu]

It is simply not the case that SureFire is 'behind with technology' - it is the case that SureFire's retail products are manufactured in significantly larger quantities and sold to significantly wider market. As a result it is not viable to change the LED each time a new LED is released.
There is a lot to be said for some stability and longevity of products - both in terms of R&D and production - especially when a lifetime guarantee of product support is part of the service.

It is important to understand that the products SureFire decides it can retail are but a fraction of the work SureFire does. CPF is not SureFire market for bleeding edge technology products, unlike other manufacturers for which CPF is a very important source of sales.

It is often only by accident that CPF gets to see a glimpse into what I consider the real work SureFire is doing with illumination technology - flashlights that make the very hairs on the back of your neck stand on end.

Al

+1. Very wisely said, my friend. :thumbsup: The Flashlight industry reminds me of the CPU industry a few years ago, where the microprocessor companies, namely Intel were involved in the 'Megahertz' race... but there's was far more to producing the highest CPU speed, as AMD have shown with their lower clocked CPU... beating INTEL to a pulp. Even though Intel had higher clockspeed CPU's, AMD won because of their better implementation, archictecture and quality of the design.

Surefire is kinda like AMD in this sense. There's far more to producing a flashlight than just sticking in the brightest LED you can get your hands on. Whilst Surefire too, has some of the brightest LEDs in their lights, they've not neglected beamshape pattern, quality of materials used in constuction, fit and finish, switch reliability, etc. And IMO, that's what makes a great flashlight - implementing all these technologies together. Surefire has continued to excel in all of these categories while also producing more REAL lumens than the competition's over-inflated claims. :thumbsup:

Whilst other flashlight companies are only concerned with making a light that's so-and-so lumens bright, Surefire is concentrating on designing a work of art - the construction of a Surefire light arising from their intense research and development, is exemplary. :twothumbs

 

[o0o]

My opinion:

Surefires offer the optimum quality for the price.

When you buy a Surefire, you get your money's worth and then some.

While I like Fenix and other cheap makers, you get what you pay for. Fenix doesn't even offer polarity protection!

I own many Surefires and other lights. When I want a go-to light for DUTY use (maximum reliability), I always choose Surefire. If I just need a around-the-house light, I'll usually grab another brand--Fenix for example.

In my collection, my Surefires have always worked. Can't say that about the other brands.

 

[jrv]

Rather than just drawing a single line and arranging everything from best to worst you ought to think of it as a chart with many different lines, each being a single parameter. Some people will care only about the price and lumens parameters, whereas some care mainly about ruggedness and care little about lumens and less about price (Beast customers).

When you look at it this way it's pretty clear that SureFire wins in some uses and loses in others. For example I have a Fenix on my workbench for when a tiny screw falls onto the carpet. There's no need for durability or waterproofing here and a failure or short runtime is of little consequence.

On the other hand my auto emergency light is a SureFire 3-cell body with a 1watt LED. If I'm driving in the country out of cell phone range and the car fails, that light has enough lumens to try to fix the car, or read until morning, or leave out all night as a warning to any car that might approach, and it's going to work fine in the rain, cold, after some drops, etc.

And even if two people agree on what the important flashlight parameters are for any given task people still have absolute upper and lower values they will not exceed. A Beast, for example, is simply unaffordable for most people even if they do conclude it is the best light for their task. Some of my older Luxeons have such hideous color tint that I would not long accept one for free even if the task was so basic that price was all that mattered.

As a general rule, my personal opinion – the way I spend my money – is that when price is the key parameter I use Fenix or LumaPower, but when price is secondary to other issues then fancier lights are the choice (Boxer, NovaTac, etc), and when ruggedness, reliability and wide environmental operating specs are key, SureFire usually is the choice.

Most flashlight flame-fests involve people with wildly different priorities who simply can't understand why everyone doesn't use their priority instead.

 

[carrot]

Rather than just drawing a single line and arranging everything from best to worst you ought to think of it as a chart with many different lines, each being a single parameter. Some people will care only about the price and lumens parameters, whereas some care mainly about ruggedness and care little about lumens and less about price (Beast customers).
... [cut for sake of brevity]

Most flashlight flame-fests involve people with wildly different priorities who simply can't understand why everyone doesn't use their priority instead.

+1 Well put, jrv! You make a very compelling argument.

 

[chesterqw]

this is spartaaa!!!

tonight we dine in hell!!!!

on topic: surefire are nice...

 

[Monocrom]

With regards to the issue of Surefire being slow to adopt the latest & greatest technology...... That's not such a bad thing when you realize that "latest & greatest" means that technology is also unproven, out in the field.

Surefire users typically rely on their lights under extreme conditions. When it comes to that, I'd rather have technology that some CPFers would consider outdated; rather than "latest & greatest." Thing is, "outdated" in this case means its been out there long enough to earn a reputation for reliability.

 

[mdocod]

Surefire manufactures some of the best flashlights in the world, no doubt.

China has some of the best values in the world for American Consumers.

Both choices, benefit U.S. citizens.

(this does not just apply to flashlights, but many products)

A great value product, benefits the buyers of those products, putting more buying power in the hands of the buyer.

A quality product, made here in the U.S. will best serve those who absolutely need maximum quality, and at the same time support fellow working americans, but at the same time, take buying power out of that buyers hands.

It's all about tradeoffs. There really isn't a right or wrong here...

I'm noticing that lately, the CPF community has really started to *mature* in these debates. I have personally participated in heated illogical debates on this matter on these forums, and I am ashamed of it. I foresee a future of much more intelligible responsible discussion on this matter. This thread has really shown the capability of CPF minds to lay forth factual information and honest discussion without confusing fact with opinion.

GO CPFers!

 

[frisco]

Just like most of you, I have or had an assortment of flashlights from different manufactures. I really like and enjoy lights from JetBeam, Fenix as well as Surefire, HDS and such. I have a few custom built lights also.

If all hell broke loose and I could only take one light with me into unknown conditions...... I'm pretty sure I'm taking a Surefire.

frisco

 

[zigziggityzoo]

Thanks for the info, and helping me understand the difference. If I ever get a chunk of change together, I may just buy myself an L1. Until then, I'll just keep using the lights I've got

(Thanks to those of you who stayed on topic, and didn't turn this into a flamewar.)

 

[DaFABRICATA]

If you're ever in the Brighton area (about 15-20 minutes from Ann Arbor) PM me and give me a heads up. I have some surefire you can check out first hand to see what you like. I have a 6P, KT1 turbohead, E1L, E2L, E2e, 9volt weaponlights with standard 1.62 bezel and the KT4 turbohead, 6volt weaponlights, not including my modified L4, KL1, KT4.
Let me know if you're ever interested to see these first hand to help make an informed decision on what light interests you!