Comprehensive Grease and Lube Thread

[csshih]

As it contains petroleum distillates (according to the MSDS) it should go in the poor category.

I was under the impression that the most common oring material was Buna-N..(nitrile)

in that case, if you look up information about those orings,
http://www.marcorubber.com/buna.htm

"Excellent resistance to petroleum-based oils and fuels, water and alcohols"


in the thread, you said, "Try to avoid petroleum-based lubricants, as they can cause o-ring damage".. but if they don't really effect the most common oring material, does it matter? Using that logic, wouldn't silicone based lubrication be bad because it messes up silicone orings?

here is a bit more information regarding orings and materials that are good/bad for them:
http://www.sealingdevices.com/orings/oring_chemicalcompatibility.pdf

COMPOUND COMPATIBILITY RATING
1 - Satisfactory
2 - Fair (usually OK for static seal)
3 - Doubtful (sometimes OK for static seal)
4 - Unsatisfactory
x - Insufficient Data

for Nitrile orings
Petrolatum 1
Petrolatum Ether 1
Petroleum Oil, Above 250°F 4 (I hope we don't brings our lights to those temperatures....)
Petroleum Oil, Below 250°F 1
Petroleum Oil, Crude 1

 

[csshih]

also, I emailed Christian regarding nano-oil's msds

it does indeed have those petroleum distillates:
http://www.nano-oil.com/Nano-Oil_MSDS_NLNA-5-10-85_20070415_.pdf

...but, does that matter?

please correct me if I'm wrong or I may end up making a fool of myself..
..unless I already have..

 

[LuxLuthor]

My personal opinion is a list should not be started and categorized with Krytox in the #1 position, when the OP is selling it in his sig. Even if some regard it as the best, with respect to Tekno_Cowboy, I have to question the objectivity. It also does not make sense to have Super Lube and Tri-Flow in different categories if they are stated to be similar.

I do not agree that as soon as you hear there is some petroleum based vehicle that it belongs in the "poor" category. That is your decision, but based on my use of Nano-Oil, I do not support it since I am not seeing any significant breakdown of my O-rings in about 2 years of use.

I have not used Krytox, but have used Nyogel 759G & 779.

I have well over a hundred lights, mostly Aluminum, but also a number in stainless & Ti. I started using Nyogel because SF uses it. However, I was always irritated by the messy black/gray grease that would get on my fingers and anywhere I rested the lubed parts. This happened no matter if I meticulously cleaned the threads, and reapplied Nyogel (mostly 759 on threads). There were some threads that had some degree of a grit or tight feeling, but I just dealt with it.

I switched to St. Claire's Nano-Oil when hearing about it from Milkyspit. I was astonished at how well a couple drops of an oil worked better than Nyogel on every thread I used it on. It gave considerable improvement especially when I used it on threads that were not well cut. The lights that had a slight scraping sensation were transformed--as if their threads were cut by a master craftsman.

My understanding on Krytox, and I believe similarly with Nyogel is that they do not provide the same level of metal on metal friction protection, where Nano-Oil excels. My observations of the black/gray wearing discoloration of Nyogel is happening because the metal on metal friction is causing breakdown. Black is from the O-rings, and gray from the aluminum. With Nano-Oil, I have not noticed any of the discoloration. In addition, so little is required for adequate lubrication, there is no mess when opening the lights.

I'm sure that Krytox and Nyogel are wonderful on highly polished (frictionless) surfaces such as pistons or O-Ring lubrication, but soft aluminum threads--especially tightened under a tailcap spring-tension are a totally different application. I think Krytox/Nyogel would be fine in a harder Ti type application where threads are well made and the metal is hard. I won't use those grease lubes on my Aluminum lights.

It is true that Nano-Oil has a petroleum based vehicle, so it is recommended to use BUNA if you are worried about your O-ring health. Personally, I can replace O-rings, but once your threads are galled or microscopically broken down, that is lost forever. Christian has told me that his goal with Nano-Lube was to protect metal on metal friction, not the O-rings. Despite that, in the almost 2 years I have been using Nano-Oil, I have not had to replace any O-Rings.

For those who have not seen it, St. Claire has posted the MSDS pdf here for his Nano-Oil.

 

[darkzero]

Curious, what are the basis for the ratings of these lubes, directed towards threads or orings or an all purpose lube for both?

As you know, there are different types of Nyogel lubes that are designed for different purposes.

 

[OfficerCamp]

Probably not the best idea, but I've been using Break Free CLP from my firearm cleaning kit on most of my lights (threads and o-rings). It works very well, and even if it reacts with the o-rings, they can be replaced when they degrade. Any thoughts? Anyone use CLP?

 

[nfetterly]

From my signature you can tell I recommend Krytox 50/50 - I use that on my Ti lights.

For my aluminum lights I use one of the nyogel products (759g) I got from lighthound (yes it does get black stuff on your fingers later)

 

[Tekno_Cowboy]

My personal opinion is a list should not be started and categorized with Krytox in the #1 position, when the OP is selling it in his sig. Even if some regard it as the best, with respect to Tekno_Cowboy, I have to question the objectivity. It also does not make sense to have Super Lube and Tri-Flow in different categories if they are stated to be similar.

I do not agree that as soon as you hear there is some petroleum based vehicle that it belongs in the "poor" category. That is your decision, but based on my use of Nano-Oil, I do not support it since I am not seeing any significant breakdown of my O-rings in about 2 years of use.

I have not used Krytox, but have used Nyogel 759G & 779.

I have well over a hundred lights, mostly Aluminum, but also a number in stainless & Ti. I started using Nyogel because SF uses it. However, I was always irritated by the messy black/gray grease that would get on my fingers and anywhere I rested the lubed parts. This happened no matter if I meticulously cleaned the threads, and reapplied Nyogel (mostly 759 on threads). There were some threads that had some degree of a grit or tight feeling, but I just dealt with it.

I switched to St. Claire's Nano-Oil when hearing about it from Milkyspit. I was astonished at how well a couple drops of an oil worked better than Nyogel on every thread I used it on. It gave considerable improvement especially when I used it on threads that were not well cut. The lights that had a slight scraping sensation were transformed--as if their threads were cut by a master craftsman.

My understanding on Krytox, and I believe similarly with Nyogel is that they do not provide the same level of metal on metal friction protection, where Nano-Oil excels. My observations of the black/gray wearing discoloration of Nyogel is happening because the metal on metal friction is causing breakdown. Black is from the O-rings, and gray from the aluminum. With Nano-Oil, I have not noticed any of the discoloration. In addition, so little is required for adequate lubrication, there is no mess when opening the lights.

I'm sure that Krytox and Nyogel are wonderful on highly polished (frictionless) surfaces such as pistons or O-Ring lubrication, but soft aluminum threads--especially tightened under a tailcap spring-tension are a totally different application. I think Krytox/Nyogel would be fine in a harder Ti type application where threads are well made and the metal is hard. I won't use those grease lubes on my Aluminum lights.

It is true that Nano-Oil has a petroleum based vehicle, so it is recommended to use BUNA if you are worried about your O-ring health. Personally, I can replace O-rings, but once your threads are galled or microscopically broken down, that is lost forever. Christian has told me that his goal with Nano-Lube was to protect metal on metal friction, not the O-rings. Despite that, in the almost 2 years I have been using Nano-Oil, I have not had to replace any O-Rings.

For those who have not seen it, St. Claire has posted the MSDS pdf here for his Nano-Oil.

Krytox is only in the #1 position because it was the first thing that came to mind. If it makes you feel better I can move it to the last position in the Very Good category. :shrug:

As far as my selling Krytox, the only reason I sell it is because I havn't found anyone selling small amounts of it. I do it mainly because I really love the lube myself, and I want to give other people the chance to try it without spending $40-50 for the smallest size from the manufacturer. If you can find someone else who sells it in small sizes, I will be more than happy to put their link in the post instead of mine.

The reason Tri-flow is in a different category is that it's the first time I've heard of it. If a couple more people recommend it, it will go to the Very Good section.

I've put the petroleum-based products in the Poor category because in past threads, they have been discouraged. If the consensus in this thread says that they should be moved to the Good section (barring any other reason to not have them there), then they'll be moved.

While I can respect your opinion of Nano-oil, in my experience I have the opposite opinion when comparing it to Krytox. In my opinion, the Krytox performs far better than the Nano-oil, especially on poor threads.

Nano-oil is a touchy subject. Opinions of it range from "it's the greatest stuff ever" to "it's no better than 3-in-1 oil". Because of this, it's very difficult to place in any specific category, not just because it has petroleum distilates in it. That is why it was removed from the list: for further input. I will keep an eye on how it fares in this thread, and if most responses are good, I will put it in the Good cateogory.

Curious, what are the basis for the ratings of these lubes, directed towards threads or orings or an all purpose lube for both?

As you know, there are different types of Nyogel lubes that are designed for different purposes.

Mostly, I'm looking at the all-purpose effectiveness, but, like the Parker O-ring lube, if there's a lube that excells at one or the other, it will be stated in the thread. If someone could shed light on the more flashlight-related varieties of Nyogel, I'd be happy to list the varieties with more specific information regarding what purpose they are best suited to.

As far as original ranking goes, it's mostly based on my opinion, and the opinion of the person who suggested it. Once it's on the list, it can always be moved if people agree that it belongs in a different category. The category I put it in is by no means the final word on it. It's just a starting point.

A good point to note is that the numbers do not denote any sort of order. They could just as easily be dashes as numbers, if this will reduce confusion.

Probably not the best idea, but I've been using Break Free CLP from my firearm cleaning kit on most of my lights (threads and o-rings). It works very well, and even if it reacts with the o-rings, they can be replaced when they degrade. Any thoughts? Anyone use CLP?

I checked out their website, and it seems interesting. I have been unable to find an MSDS so far, so I'm not sure where it should be ranked. Can anyone recommend a category?

 

[Tekno_Cowboy]

Removed the numbers to reduce confusion in the OP.

Moved Krytox to end of Very Good section, and NO-OX-ID to Very Good section.

 

[elwood]

D'OH! Maybe i should read before posting.

 

[Tekno_Cowboy]

Thanks for the info on O-rings Craig :thumbsup:

I'm adding a link to an o-ring material comparison.

 

[Tekno_Cowboy]

I've been thinking about the category placement of the lubes, and came to the conclusion that the thread might benefit from adding a fifth category for nominated lubes.

As lubes would be nominated, they would go into this category, and then be moved based on the recommendations of forum members.

Does anyone have any suggestions regarding this idea?

 

[fyrstormer]

I've been using moly/lithium wheel bearing grease on my flashlights since 2001, and the O-rings are still fine. The threads on my oldest aluminum light are so polished and smooth I can't even take a picture of them to show it off because the flash reflection burns-out all the detail of the threads in the photo. I've recently switched to a homemade mixture that works better on my new titanium lights and seems to work better on aluminum as well, but it too is petroleum-based.

I could care less about the O-rings. They can be replaced; threads can't be. As far as I know, nothing but nothing lubricates metal-on-metal as well as petroleum distillates, which among other reasons is why motor oil is still a petroleum-based product when there are so many other options available.

 

[darkzero]

If someone could shed light on the more flashlight-related varieties of Nyogel, I'd be happy to list the varieties with more specific information regarding what purpose they are best suited to.

On flashlights I use 759G for threads & 779ZC for orings. 759G has been replaced by 760G. I have enough of both 759G & 779ZC to last me more years so I haven't made the switch to 760G despite it's few improvements. No idea if 760G discolors as well.

Their descriptions can imply that both can be used for threads. 759G/760G is good for electrical contacts & aluminum threads. 779ZC is also formulated to reduce wear on aluminum surfaces.

Nyogel works great but not always & depends on the application. I find that Nyogel does not perform well on Ti threads. It also does not perform well for pistons on PD driven lights. Makes them "sticky". In some cases where Nyogel has been applied to threads like on a twisy tailcap for example, if it's not used for a while it tends to stick & must be "worked in" to get smooth again. Excessive amounts of Nyogel can also make threads feel sticky.

Here's some well documented info on Nyogel

 

[KiwiMark]

From my signature you can tell I recommend Krytox 50/50 - I use that on my Ti lights.

For my aluminum lights I use one of the nyogel products (759g) I got from lighthound (yes it does get black stuff on your fingers later)

So, why not use Krytox 50/50 on the Aluminium lights as well? I am using the Krytox that I got from you on both Ti & Al and it is working well on each.

 

[glockboy]

I like the Dieelectric grease, work great, like nyogel and Deoxit gold in one.

 

[LuxLuthor]

TC, thanks for your follow up note, and please don't over-react to my comments, as I made sure to say that Krytox may even deserve to be in the top position, and that I have not used it...so technically I am not even qualified to comment on it. I would feel the same about any ranking system for anything where the person assigning the rank is also selling it--the point being that it's not personal towards you.

I can only compare Nano-lube to Nyogel, and my main criteria is seeing the progressive discoloration of Nyogel mainly in aluminum threads.

As far as I am concerned, that discoloration is only coming from one thing, and it is the color of the aluminum. If Krytox has the same discoloration over time, that alone would be an adequate criteria for me not to use it on my aluminum threads.

We will have to see if those using it note a similar metal discoloration--assuming they cleaned their threads before applying it. If they do, then I would not regard it any better than Nyogel in aluminum lights.

My personal observation over 2 years with over a hundred flashlights is that Nano-Oil is far superior to Nyogel. Amazingly, I have never needed to reapply it. I have not used the remainder of my two tubes of Nyogel since I started with it. In all this time, my threads remain clean which is the acid test I look for.

Honestly, I don't care if anyone else likes it or not, nor if St. Claire sells a lot of it or not. The other Arnold guy's Quicken brand also worked well, but he was an obnoxious twit, and I never bought from him again.

If the petroleum vehicle is harming my lights or O-rings, I should be seeing some discoloration when I open my lights to charge batteries. I don't, and I have not gone to the trouble of replacing O-Rings with BUNA...so that is why I feel it is not correct to assume petroleum vehicle automatically means bad.

If a lube makes the threads feel smooth, that is an important sign. If you later find discoloration of the lube, that is a more important indication that metal on metal abrasion is occurring.

 

[Tekno_Cowboy]

On flashlights I use 759G for threads & 779ZC for orings. 759G has been replaced by 760G. I have enough of both 759G & 779ZC to last me more years so I haven't made the switch to 760G despite it's few improvements. No idea if 760G discolors as well.

Their descriptions can imply that both can be used for threads. 759G/760G is good for electrical contacts & aluminum threads. 779ZC is also formulated to reduce wear on aluminum surfaces.

Nyogel works great but not always & depends on the application. I find that Nyogel does not perform well on Ti threads. It also does not perform well for pistons on PD driven lights. Makes them "sticky". In some cases where Nyogel has been applied to threads like on a twisy tailcap for example, if it's not used for a while it tends to stick & must be "worked in" to get smooth again. Excessive amounts of Nyogel can also make threads feel sticky.

Here's some well documented info on Nyogel

Thanks for the info. I added a little info to the list, and I'll add more specific info once I get around to reading the link you provided.

TC, thanks for your follow up note, and please don't over-react to my comments, as I made sure to say that Krytox may even deserve to be in the top position, and that I have not used it...so technically I am not even qualified to comment on it. I would feel the same about any ranking system for anything where the person assigning the rank is also selling it--the point being that it's not personal towards you.

I can only compare Nano-lube to Nyogel, and my main criteria is seeing the progressive discoloration of Nyogel mainly in aluminum threads.

As far as I am concerned, that discoloration is only coming from one thing, and it is the color of the aluminum. If Krytox has the same discoloration over time, that alone would be an adequate criteria for me not to use it on my aluminum threads.

We will have to see if those using it note a similar metal discoloration--assuming they cleaned their threads before applying it. If they do, then I would not regard it any better than Nyogel in aluminum lights.

My personal observation over 2 years with over a hundred flashlights is that Nano-Oil is far superior to Nyogel. Amazingly, I have never needed to reapply it. I have not used the remainder of my two tubes of Nyogel since I started with it. In all this time, my threads remain clean which is the acid test I look for.

Honestly, I don't care if anyone else likes it or not, nor if St. Claire sells a lot of it or not. The other Arnold guy's Quicken brand also worked well, but he was an obnoxious twit, and I never bought from him again.

If the petroleum vehicle is harming my lights or O-rings, I should be seeing some discoloration when I open my lights to charge batteries. I don't, and I have not gone to the trouble of replacing O-Rings with BUNA...so that is why I feel it is not correct to assume petroleum vehicle automatically means bad.

If a lube makes the threads feel smooth, that is an important sign. If you later find discoloration of the lube, that is a more important indication that metal on metal abrasion is occurring.

I have not noticed any discoloration in Kytox when the threads are properly cleaned first. That's really the sticking point too. If the threads aren't clean, you'll notice whatever you didn't get off changing the color of the grease.

You say a lube that makes the threads feel smooth is a sign of wear, but isn't that the point of adding a lube?

I would really like to hear you thoughts when comparing Krytox to Nano-oil and Nyogel. I know my own opinions comparing it to Nano-oil, but I gave away my Nyogel before I got the Krytox. Would you be willing to try it if I sent you a small amount?

While I share your opinion of Mr St. Claire's competitor, let's try to keep the Nano-oil/Nanolube war out of this thread. It has shut down enough threads already.


On Petroleum Products:

So far it's looking like they aren't as much of a problem as they have been made out to be. If it still looks like this in a couple of days, I'll move the products that have been added to the Poor category simply for that fact to the good category.

 

[Ny0ng1]

Very understandable confusion. The answer is NO - silicone rubber is unsuitable for any application where friction might be a factor, i.e. flashlight O-rings. It is used in static (non-moving) sealing applications only. You therefore won't find any silicone O-rings in your flashlights. It is therefore OK to use silicone grease.

IIRC McGizmo uses mixes of silicone and epdm rings on his lights.

wait, i found the FAQ: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/93471&highlight=silicone

XR-19 Head:
Window seal - #019 EPDM (or the GID silicone)
Head to pak seal - #017 Silicone (red)
.....

I was under the impression that the most common oring material was Buna-N..(nitrile)

in that case, if you look up information about those orings,
http://www.marcorubber.com/buna.htm

"Excellent resistance to petroleum-based oils and fuels, water and alcohols"

The above post by csshih reminds me of sale thread by rockettomato for EPDM and silicone o-rings http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=191738 , where i read about comparisons between Buna-N, EPDM, and Silicone. No I'm not related with RocketTomato other than i bought 1 set of silicone rings from him .

Buna-N: Nitrile Rubber
-20 to 212 F
-30 to 100 C
Good compressibility
Advantage- cheap, widely used
Disadvantage- poor resistance to sunlight, ozone and weathering

EPDM: Ethylene Propylene
-40 to 212 F
-40 to 100 C
Good compressibility
Advantage- water, steam, ozone and weather resistant
Disadvantage- Not recommended for use with use synthetic lubricants

Silicone:
-80 to 400 F
-62 to 204 C
Typically used in static seals, not recommended for dynamic seals.
Advantage- Increased temperature range. Resistant to sun damage, ozone, fungal and biological attack
Disadvantage- Poor tear and abrasion strength.

Having said that may I suggest a tabulated form of brands or category of lubricants indicating of its best application for each material.
something like...

Anyway, thanks TS for initiating this thread :thumbsup:
Eric

 

[LuxLuthor]

I have not noticed any discoloration in Kytox when the threads are properly cleaned first. That's really the sticking point too. If the threads aren't clean, you'll notice whatever you didn't get off changing the color of the grease.

I did notice discoloration with Nyogel. I saw it as soon as I got my L2 from SF, and again with my M4, M6, and E2D. They all have filthy discoloration out of the box. I want to emphasize again that the repeated discoloration after cleaning and reapplication of Nyogel was primarily noticed with soft aluminum, and especially the tailcap where the spring tension would tend to force metal on metal abrasion.

You say a lube that makes the threads feel smooth is a sign of wear, but isn't that the point of adding a lube?

I don't believe I said that, or meant to imply it. I was trying to draw a distinction between the Nyogel (& perhaps other top tier category lubes) being more oriented towards working with highly polished metal surfaces and O-Ring rubber surfaces sliding on metal...vs. Nano-Lube nano particles theoretically acting as tiny ball bearings to keep metal from scraping against metal.

Feeling a smooth threading is one important feature. However, no matter how smooth a lube feels does not mean it is preventing metal scraping against metal. This is going to be more of a problem with softer metals like aluminum, and especially if threads are not precisely made and matched between parts.

I don't think you can judge the value of a lube by using harder metals, or lights made with meticulous thread craftsmanship by McGizmo, Mac, Milky, Modamag, etc. Here is an example of my first "real" light that started my flashaholism, SF L2. The damage to the outer threads when viewed with magnifier shows actual metal scraping/scratch damage that correlated with using Nyogel. I can capture it with my digital microscope, but even this macro view shows some of it.

Since using the Nano-Lube, I have seen no progression of wear, additional scratching, or dirty threads. (click for larger view)

I would really like to hear you thoughts when comparing Krytox to Nano-oil and Nyogel. I know my own opinions comparing it to Nano-oil, but I gave away my Nyogel before I got the Krytox. Would you be willing to try it if I sent you a small amount?

Sure. I would always be willing to try new things. I'm not absolute about Nano-Oil, only that it has worked best on my aluminum lights.

While I share your opinion of Mr St. Claire's competitor, let's try to keep the Nano-oil/Nanolube war out of this thread. It has shut down enough threads already.

I only mentioned that to verify that I am not beholden to the one dealer, rather to the technology of the product.

On Petroleum Products:

So far it's looking like they aren't as much of a problem as they have been made out to be. If it still looks like this in a couple of days, I'll move the products that have been added to the Poor category simply for that fact to the good category.

Well there are petroleum products of different compositions. I have no doubt that some are more harmful to certain O-ring types than others. I think the discoloration and condition of your O-rings is the best way to judge that.

 

[Tekno_Cowboy]

Sure. I would always be willing to try new things. I'm not absolute about Nano-Oil, only that it has worked best on my aluminum lights.

Shoot me a PM with an address, and I'll get some on it's way to you.