HKJ
Flashaholic
I am not sure about the "rapidly expanding" part, if you look at the cell the ventilations holes are very small. The pressure might build slowly up (a second or two) and when it is high enough the tailcap and heads are forced away.
Dangerous explosion with 2 CR123A primary
- Thread starter CampingMaster
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I am not sure about the "rapidly expanding" part, if you look at the cell the ventilations holes are very small. The pressure might build slowly up (a second or two) and when it is high enough the tailcap and heads are forced away.
Lou Minescence
Flashlight Enthusiast
Looking at the picture, it appears the left battery was alot hotter than the right. I can't tell the brand of the left battery, the right battery didn't burn off it's label.
TooManyGizmos
Flashlight Enthusiast
~ HKJ ,
When this happens , do you think plastic end cap threads on the Light body would be stripped away by the pressure ? Would a plastic cap just pop off and allow the flames and gasses to escape less violently ? (and NOT explode) (I've never seen a Hand grenade with a plastic filler hole plug in the bottom)
This would have scared the CRAP out of me - enough to cause a future flashlight phobia !
Apparently ... the way this was described ... this event could have happened to any one of us ... that's what bothers me . And it seems there was no prior warning of it to alert the guy ! - He had it right beside his HEAD ! - I wonder if this user would now prefer a flashlight with a body that was not quite so strong and durable as to withstand being run over by a tank . The stronger it is ... the more strongly it will erupt from within . Plastic tailcaps ... anyone ?
~
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HKJ
Flashaholic
This will depend on how strongly it is attach to the body. A solid plastic endcap with a solid thread would probably be nearly as bad. The idea is to avoid high pressure, that can throw stuff far away at high velocity, this might also reduce the risk of flames.
I believe that some plastic filled holes in the body would be better, they can be designed to block high pressure from outside, but open for releative low pressure from inside. For lights where the battery fits rather tight, it would be possible to place these holes at the head of the battery, i.e. where the battery lets out pressure.
Only concern is how it would feel when having a hand over the plastic filled hole. As long as you just get shocked and drops the light it is fine, but if it can do serious damage to the hand, it is very bad.
If we take care of all this things that's said in this and the other threads about venting batteries - only high quality cells, balance cells, never drain to much in multi cell lights etc.
Isn't this a rare happening compared to the large amounts of CR123 cells used? Maybe I'm only trying to calm my self about the risks?
We do use cars, bikes, powertools and all kind of things there we know there is a risk of accident.
We do what we can do minimize the risk though.
@TooManyGizmos, this is a good idea.
In cars we have deformation zones. If we have an accident these zones will deform while where the driver and passengers are we try to keep intact.
Sometimes people hold there flashlight in the mouth and then having the tail being the weakest part maybe not the best.
Thinking about it, for me I think I would prefer if just the front end of the light blow out - lens, reflector etc.
That is the end of the flashlight that I probably don't point to my face or hold my hand for.
on the other hand I might point the light at something / somebody I don't want to shoot pieces of glass against!
Isn't this a rare happening compared to the large amounts of CR123 cells used? Maybe I'm only trying to calm my self about the risks?
We do use cars, bikes, powertools and all kind of things there we know there is a risk of accident.
We do what we can do minimize the risk though.
@TooManyGizmos, this is a good idea.
In cars we have deformation zones. If we have an accident these zones will deform while where the driver and passengers are we try to keep intact.
Sometimes people hold there flashlight in the mouth and then having the tail being the weakest part maybe not the best.
Thinking about it, for me I think I would prefer if just the front end of the light blow out - lens, reflector etc.
That is the end of the flashlight that I probably don't point to my face or hold my hand for.
on the other hand I might point the light at something / somebody I don't want to shoot pieces of glass against!
TooManyGizmos
Flashlight Enthusiast
~
It just seems to me that some attempt should be made to reduce the violent nature of what he experienced , what ever that might be .
Anything to reduce what he experienced .... would be an improvement.
I'm just trying to get folks to think about an alternative to what we have now .
There seems to be some room for improvement so as to reduce violent pressure buildup .
If this had happened to you ? ..... what improvements would you be looking for ?
If these events continue .... O.S.H.A. may get involved.
I hope my TV remote control don't blow up in my hand today.
~
It just seems to me that some attempt should be made to reduce the violent nature of what he experienced , what ever that might be .
Anything to reduce what he experienced .... would be an improvement.
I'm just trying to get folks to think about an alternative to what we have now .
There seems to be some room for improvement so as to reduce violent pressure buildup .
If this had happened to you ? ..... what improvements would you be looking for ?
If these events continue .... O.S.H.A. may get involved.
I hope my TV remote control don't blow up in my hand today.
~
TooManyGizmos
Flashlight Enthusiast
~
Here is my last statement ............ ( I'm going to bed )
I think some part of the battery tube should be made of softer plastic ....
that will rupture less violently than the metal ... during a catastrophic failure .
Yes, we use tools and drive cars, but how many of those blow-up without warning ?
~
Here is my last statement ............ ( I'm going to bed )
I think some part of the battery tube should be made of softer plastic ....
that will rupture less violently than the metal ... during a catastrophic failure .
Yes, we use tools and drive cars, but how many of those blow-up without warning ?
~
CampingMaster, thank you for posting this and the excellent pics.
Please question your friend and try to answer the following questions, it's important to have as much info as possible. Edit the answers into your first post, too.
1. How much was the light used over all that time since it was bought, and what brightness levels were used?
2. What brightness level was used when the incident happened?
3. Was the flashlight noticeably dimmer compared to using new batteries (maybe you could give your friend a similar light to compare with his memory)?
You can see, my questions are intended to gain info about the condition of the batteries and what power they were demanded to deliver at the time of the incident.
Oh and since checking on batteries with a voltmeter or multimeter was mentioned several times, everybody please be aware that
the resting voltage of a CR123 primary battery doesn't tell you much, if anything.
It's only true for Li-Ion rechargeable batteries that their voltage correlates to charge condition.
Please question your friend and try to answer the following questions, it's important to have as much info as possible. Edit the answers into your first post, too.
1. How much was the light used over all that time since it was bought, and what brightness levels were used?
2. What brightness level was used when the incident happened?
3. Was the flashlight noticeably dimmer compared to using new batteries (maybe you could give your friend a similar light to compare with his memory)?
You can see, my questions are intended to gain info about the condition of the batteries and what power they were demanded to deliver at the time of the incident.
Oh and since checking on batteries with a voltmeter or multimeter was mentioned several times, everybody please be aware that
the resting voltage of a CR123 primary battery doesn't tell you much, if anything.
It's only true for Li-Ion rechargeable batteries that their voltage correlates to charge condition.
CampingMaster
Newly Enlightened
Thank you very much for these very good and pertinent questions.
I talked with my friend few minutes ago and :
1- The use of the flashlight was very sparingly, very little use over 13 months. Was it at maximum the few times he uses it ? I think so.
2- Probably 95% sure the maximum (for those who are used to Fenix terms : maximum for 4Sevens = Turbo for Fenix ), but because he did not use it often maybe he did not know that his flashlight was'nt delivering the real maximum ( 230 lumens ).
3- He is at on hour ride from my home, I am supposed to see him back when I will receive his new replacement flashlight, only in few weeks, at that moment we will discuss about your questions and give more info in this thread. If I get more info before that all the details will be posted, I am waiting also from him a report of the details of what happens for 4Sevens and CPF users.
Thank you again for your questions, this will help to pinpoint something not to do with with our flashlights using 3 V. batteries.
Ultimate CampingMaster
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SilverFox
Flashaholic
Hello CampingMaster,
Years ago several tests were done showing the dangers of primary lithium cells. The basic problem was that lower quality cells often are not matched in capacity, and this can also happen if partially used cells are used with new cells. In order to generate the "rapid venting with flame" a few things need to be in place. You need heat, a cell that is being reversed charged, and enough time to get the chemical reaction going.
The basic safety aspects that came out of this testing were to use quality cells, to never mix partially used or different brands of cells with new cells in a multi cell light, to make sure the light is shut off and locked out, and to no worry about the last little bit of capacity in the cells. When the light starts to dim, replace the cells.
Following these procedures, the incidents of "exploding" flashlights has been greatly reduced. It is still not quite zero, but greatly reduced.
Tom
Years ago several tests were done showing the dangers of primary lithium cells. The basic problem was that lower quality cells often are not matched in capacity, and this can also happen if partially used cells are used with new cells. In order to generate the "rapid venting with flame" a few things need to be in place. You need heat, a cell that is being reversed charged, and enough time to get the chemical reaction going.
The basic safety aspects that came out of this testing were to use quality cells, to never mix partially used or different brands of cells with new cells in a multi cell light, to make sure the light is shut off and locked out, and to no worry about the last little bit of capacity in the cells. When the light starts to dim, replace the cells.
Following these procedures, the incidents of "exploding" flashlights has been greatly reduced. It is still not quite zero, but greatly reduced.
Tom
SilverFox, I can't seem to locate the thread where the testing was done - do you have a link handy? (I tried to search, I really did!)
One quick question about depleted cells. My only CR123A light is a single cell (Fenix E15). Is it dangerous or risky to run it until it totally stops working to deplete the cell as much as possible? After I do that, is the battery any more or less safe? I always figured I should deplete the cell as much as possible before throwing it away.
One quick question about depleted cells. My only CR123A light is a single cell (Fenix E15). Is it dangerous or risky to run it until it totally stops working to deplete the cell as much as possible? After I do that, is the battery any more or less safe? I always figured I should deplete the cell as much as possible before throwing it away.
SilverFox
Flashaholic
Hello Awyeah,
Here it is.
One of the key components to explosive behavior with the CR123 cell is heat. Once the cell is pretty much used up, it is hard to generate enough heat to keep a chemical reaction going. In general single cell lights with a discharged cell are not a problem. I use a single cell area light and feed it with my partially used CR123 cells. It completely drains them.
Tom
Here it is.
One of the key components to explosive behavior with the CR123 cell is heat. Once the cell is pretty much used up, it is hard to generate enough heat to keep a chemical reaction going. In general single cell lights with a discharged cell are not a problem. I use a single cell area light and feed it with my partially used CR123 cells. It completely drains them.
Tom
Mr Happy
Flashlight Enthusiast
I'd just like to address the questions above regarding the relative risks between primary lithium cells and rechargeable lithium ion cells.
Primary lithium cells contain metallic lithium. This is a very reactive metal that is itching to burst into flames like an incendiary device. It makes the risk and effects of energetic decomposition very much higher with primary lithium cells than with rechargeable cells. The only thing that keeps this reactive metal in check inside a battery is very careful attention to the chemical composition, construction and quality control of the battery. The stability of the battery is a fine balancing act between producing electricity and exploding.
This inherent danger is the reason for recommending the use only of batteries made in the USA or Japan (or Europe) and not China. With the best of intentions it is hard to get the same consistent quality control in a factory in China that can be achieved in the USA.
Some may recall the early history of rechargeable lithium batteries where the first designs actually used metallic lithium. These did not make it into mainstream use because they were too dangerous. Likewise some may have heard the danger of metallic lithium plating out in lithium ion batteries if they are improperly charged. Again, the metallic lithium makes the battery unstable and liable to fail violently.
Never forget that primary lithium cells are full of metallic lithium. There is a lot of energy sitting there waiting to escape and if something goes wrong it can escape very violently. Frankly, I am always a bit nervous around them.
Some suggestions for safe use are to buy only the quality USA made ones, and try to use them only in single cell lights. If using them in pairs, always use fresh stock, dispose of them and replace them before they are fully depleted, and based on this thread replace them after six months of use whether they still have life left in them or not.
Primary lithium cells contain metallic lithium. This is a very reactive metal that is itching to burst into flames like an incendiary device. It makes the risk and effects of energetic decomposition very much higher with primary lithium cells than with rechargeable cells. The only thing that keeps this reactive metal in check inside a battery is very careful attention to the chemical composition, construction and quality control of the battery. The stability of the battery is a fine balancing act between producing electricity and exploding.
This inherent danger is the reason for recommending the use only of batteries made in the USA or Japan (or Europe) and not China. With the best of intentions it is hard to get the same consistent quality control in a factory in China that can be achieved in the USA.
Some may recall the early history of rechargeable lithium batteries where the first designs actually used metallic lithium. These did not make it into mainstream use because they were too dangerous. Likewise some may have heard the danger of metallic lithium plating out in lithium ion batteries if they are improperly charged. Again, the metallic lithium makes the battery unstable and liable to fail violently.
Never forget that primary lithium cells are full of metallic lithium. There is a lot of energy sitting there waiting to escape and if something goes wrong it can escape very violently. Frankly, I am always a bit nervous around them.
Some suggestions for safe use are to buy only the quality USA made ones, and try to use them only in single cell lights. If using them in pairs, always use fresh stock, dispose of them and replace them before they are fully depleted, and based on this thread replace them after six months of use whether they still have life left in them or not.
So today I was draining a 123 battery in my Fenix E15 - it had gotten to 40% on the ZTS tester, and since it's my only CR123 flashlight and my EDC, I like to keep fresh cells in it.
As the battery got closer to death, the light (and battery) began to warm up a lot more than usual. I turned it off and took the cell out. It took a while but it finally cooled down. It is at the "flashing 20%" level on the ZTS now. Is this normal behavior or was that battery headed toward a poof?
It wasn't too hot to touch, but warm enough that I was concerned.
I am fairly inexperienced with these cells, and sometimes I get a little apprehensive about them.
SilverFox
Flashaholic
Hello Awyeah,
That sounds normal. When they get too hot to hold in your hand, you are getting closer to a problem.
Tom
That sounds normal. When they get too hot to hold in your hand, you are getting closer to a problem.
Tom
roadkill1109
Flashlight Enthusiast
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2011
- Messages
- 2,309
you know what would be better? Just use the light until it runs out by normal operation rather than keeping it on to drain it, just carry a fresh cell with you so when the battery drains normally, swap it out with the fresh one and just charge the old one when you get home.
roadkill1109
Flashlight Enthusiast
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2011
- Messages
- 2,309
Did Dave or somebody at 4Sevens make an official statement on this incident?
aimxplode
Enlightened
They are made in China. They are definitely not Panasonics.
hank
Flashlight Enthusiast
A reminder -- lithium primary cells packed in shipping containers have caught fire. They don't need to be in use to catch fire.
https://www.google.com/search?q=lithium+primary+battery
(read carefully, most of the documents talk about two different chemistries -- lithium primary, and lithium-ion rechargeable)
This among others was done after the shipping container caught fire -- it tests brand-name nonrechargeable primary lithium cells commonly used in consumer appliances and describes how they burn:
Flammability Assessment of Bulk- Packed, Nonrechargeable Lithium ...
www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/04-26.pdf
Aside -- I've been looking for some place to take dead batteries. Well, if I were in Hollywood I could go to Amoeba Music and drop them off: http://www.amoeba.com/content/think-green.html
Recycling http://www.toxco.com/ costs about $1.50/lb -- I'm emailing to ask if they can tell me somewhere around my ZIP code that has a pickup box where I can take my dead battery collection.
(The usual places like Ace Hardware and Radio Shack near me accept _only_ cellphone batteries)
https://www.google.com/search?q=lithium+primary+battery
(read carefully, most of the documents talk about two different chemistries -- lithium primary, and lithium-ion rechargeable)
This among others was done after the shipping container caught fire -- it tests brand-name nonrechargeable primary lithium cells commonly used in consumer appliances and describes how they burn:
Flammability Assessment of Bulk- Packed, Nonrechargeable Lithium ...
www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/04-26.pdf
Aside -- I've been looking for some place to take dead batteries. Well, if I were in Hollywood I could go to Amoeba Music and drop them off: http://www.amoeba.com/content/think-green.html
Recycling http://www.toxco.com/ costs about $1.50/lb -- I'm emailing to ask if they can tell me somewhere around my ZIP code that has a pickup box where I can take my dead battery collection.
(The usual places like Ace Hardware and Radio Shack near me accept _only_ cellphone batteries)
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