Differences between Pilas and other protected cells?

[GadgetTravel]

Ive been using Pilas successfully for a few months in a Surefire 9P with a P91 HOLA. I recently bought a Streamlight TL3 and the Pilas wont work in it. They are fully charged and work fine in the 9P and standard 123s work fine in the TL3. I was planning on getting more Pilas when they come in but should I get other protected rechargeable cells? Anyone else seen this effect? Thanks for any info.

 

[turbodog]

I have 2 168s pila cells that I have used for a while now.

They do not work in my current u2. They are too long.

Apparently, the 168s pila is the same as a 17650protected from batterystation. Except the pila 1) costs 3x as much 2)is slightly longer, enough to cause a problem with the u2 and hds 2x123 tube

Moral?

get some 17650protected cells from BS.

Ive been using Pilas successfully for a few months in a Surefire 9P with a P91 HOLA. I recently bought a Streamlight TL3 and the Pilas wont work in it. They are fully charged and work fine in the 9P and standard 123s work fine in the TL3. I was planning on getting more Pilas when they come in but should I get other protected rechargeable cells? Anyone else seen this effect? Thanks for any info.

 

[HarryN]

Ive been using Pilas successfully for a few months in a Surefire 9P with a P91 HOLA. I recently bought a Streamlight TL3 and the Pilas wont work in it. They are fully charged and work fine in the 9P and standard 123s work fine in the TL3. I was planning on getting more Pilas when they come in but should I get other protected rechargeable cells? Anyone else seen this effect? Thanks for any info.

I assume the problem you are talking about is that the protection circuit is coming on ? I think the P90 pulls around 1 amp, and the P91 is at least 1.5 amps IIRC. Any idea what the TL3 pulls ? Is its runtime shorter than the P91 with 2 x 123 s ?

 

[Bullzeyebill]

The P91 pulls 2.3amps, and the Pila's should work with the TL3. Probably a contact problem with the flat top Pila's. Try a small rare earth magnet for contact. You are no doubt using two 150s Pila's, essentially the same sisze as 17500 cells. The Pila 150s cells, protected, are good at handling high amp drain, probably better than most protected, generic 17500 cells.

Bill

 

[Lunarmodule]

Hello there,

I've been using protected 17500 cells from Lighthound (identical to AW cells) in my TL-3 with excellent results, no magnets or spring trickery required. Streamlight TL-3 draws 1.250A average from 2 protected 17500 cells, absolutely no issues with double clicks or no starts, works first time every time with about an hours runtime. I dont have Pila 150S cells to try in my TL-3 but they should be very similar, perhaps a tad longer than the 17500s I have. Both protected and unprotected 17500s from Lighthound, BatteryStation, AW, etc work without a hitch in my TL-3.

Try using one of those small round rare earth magnets (AW or other LiIon cell suppliers have them as well as hardware stores) on the positive terminal of one of the batteries and try it again. Another alternative is a blob of solder applied to one of the (+) terminals. This solution was required in my Surefire U2, which absolutely refused to work with Pila 168S or 168A cells, nor 17670 or 18650 UNLESS the small magnet was placed on the pos terminal, then worked absolutely perfectly. Also, when I used the same 17500 cells that work without a magnet in my TL-3, when used in a 3-cell SF body (Z2 plus extender) the magnet was required for guaranteed good contact, helped out also with a little stretching of the spring.

Hope this helps...

 

[GadgetTravel]

Thanks for the info. I dont think the magnet will help, if anything the Pilas are a bit too long it seems. Time to order some protected 17500s!

 

[greenLED]

IIRC, Pila's have an additional contact plate, whereas some of the other no-brand cells use the actual protection circuit's contact as cell contact (which may lead to obvious problems if the cells are compressed :green

 

[cognitivefun]

Pilas work on my P91 but AW's protected equivalents don't. Even with double or triple clicking

 

[GadgetTravel]

Pilas work on my P91 but AW's protected equivalents don't. Even with double or triple clicking

Maybe a magnet. The Pilas are a bit long, maybe the 17500s are too short?

 

[MrMom]

Maybe a magnet. The Pilas are a bit long, maybe the 17500s are too short?

NO! Once the contact is made with a magnet or blob of solder the difference lies in the protection. Pilas will handle the high current loads that the generic wont. My Pilas perform well in all of my high current drain apps while the blue brand fails to light. I have twenty various cells which have been put through the paces.

The generic work well with LEDs.
Pilas work well with LEDs and incans.

You get what you pay for.

 

[GadgetTravel]

NO! Once the contact is made with a magnet or blob of solder the difference lies in the protection. Pilas will handle the high current loads that the generic wont. My Pilas perform well in all of my high current drain apps while the blue brand fails to light. I have twenty various cells which have been put through the paces.

The generic work well with LEDs.
Pilas work well with LEDs and incans.

You get what you pay for.

So why wont the Pilas work in my TL3?

 

[HarryN]

NO! Once the contact is made with a magnet or blob of solder the difference lies in the protection. Pilas will handle the high current loads that the generic wont. My Pilas perform well in all of my high current drain apps while the blue brand fails to light. I have twenty various cells which have been put through the paces.

The generic work well with LEDs.
Pilas work well with LEDs and incans.

You get what you pay for.

MrMom - I am very glad to see your post. I have been trying to find someone to tell me if the Pilas (in particular, the 168A) can handle 3- 4 amps without tripping the protection circuit. Do you have any experience in that range ?

Thanks

HarryN

 

[Lunarmodule]

GadgetTravel,

It has been established that the protection circuit in Pilas will allow more current to flow before engaging its protection circuit versus the blue jacketed generic or AW cells.

However, in the case of the TL-3, it draws a comparatively modest 1.25-1.30A versus the 2.30A of the SF P91. The protected 17500s usually allow 2.2A before they shut down the output. The Pila 150S cells are more lenient and thats why they operate your P91 without trouble.

The issue in the TL-3 is the physical spacing of the cells in the light. I dont have my calipers handy but by eye the Pila cells are a tad longer and a smidge wider (love those specifics, huh?) than the protected 17500 cells I use with my TL-3.

2 reasons for a light with protected cells not to light: insufficient contact or excessive current demand from the bulb. The TL-3 isnt even close to maxing out a standard P17500, so it has to be fitment of the larger Pilas preventing proper function in the TL-3.


Harry N:

In regards to the Pila 168A (18650 cell), MUCH larger diameter plus length of 2 CR123 and wont fit the TL-3 or SF C/Z/P bodies without modification, it can deliver 3.6A continuous with about 4A very short peaks. The 17500 is a 2.2A continuous, 2.6A peak cell. The new Pilas will have significantly higher mAh ratings and more current capacity, but I'm still waiting to see them in person.

 

[HarryN]

Thanks Lunar - that info makes my M6 replacement body practical.

 

[GadgetTravel]

Lunarmodule, thank you for the detailed and complete answer. Tells me what I need to do. Thanks again!

 

[MrMom]

Thanks Lunarmodule for your post.

I find that the blue and pila cells are just a tad larger than 123's. I have had a few fit issues (mostly Inovas) because of the increase in thickness.

Here is what works for me:

Hyperlux-V 2-Pila 150s or 2-blue 17500
KL1 Pila 150s or Pila 168s or blue 17500 or blue 17650 depends on what body in use
L4 Pila 150s or Pila 168s or blue 17500 or blue 17650 dependa on what body in use
L5 Pila 168s or blue 17650
L6 Pila 2-150s or 2-blue 17500 (requires a spring to make ground contact)
M3 low output bulb Pila 2-150s or 2-blue 17500 (requires a spring to make ground contact)
M3 HOLA Pila 2-150s, blue won't work (requires a spring to make ground contact)
12V 700 lumen mag 3- Pila 168s, blue won't work

If you add a solder blob to the center head rivet in the smaller Surefire LED's, you won't have contact issues.

When using 17500's or Pila 168s the slight added length in 3 cell light will push up the outer ground spring in the head of the light. An additional ground spring is needed for contact. These springs are provided for free when you order your Pilas from JonB.

I have had 3 blue cells fail after less than 10 charge cycles, never a Pila.

I hope that this brings a in use perspective to the cells.

 

[Lunarmodule]

Thanks fellows for the kind acknowledgements, glad to be of service

HarryN,

You clever fellow! Mr. Side by Side himself! A quad of 168A cells will do the trick nicely, 2 in parallel and 2 in series will serve well as a replacement M6 body and will drive the MN16, MN20, and even MN21 LAs very nicely direct drive. Unless you are thinking three in parallel two in series for mucho runtime with same... Please include me on the top of the interest list for that project!

MrMom,

Very useful list of cell compatabilities, thanks for that contribution! I consider Pila to be the Mercedes Benz of rechargeables: high performance with a premium price tag. I have put my Pilas through the mill and have never had a failure yet either, and like you have a 3x 168S 12V 1331/1318 where the Pilas demonstrate their more stout current delivery and pay their way. No gimmicky clicking, first time every time. Very nice!

My ONLY gripe about Pilas is the way the protection circuit latches (remains) in the cell disconnected mode at the first instance of low voltage, when there is still some reserve energy left in the cell. Because they dont reset until placed on a charger, they dont give you a chance to use up the remaining power. This chance would be useful in emergencies or other times you might just want to just flash the light little by little sparingly to find your way back from a hike that took a bit longer than your expected runtime.

Its kind of like having a car that shuts down the engine, locks the doors, and engages the brakes when the fuel gauge indicates a hair under 1/8 of a tank. There's still a gallon or so left, but it dosent give you the option to go down to the last drop (and risk damage) or get out and push the car in neutral to reach a gas station. Unless you have ready access to a charger at the time your light safely (for the cells) blinks out, you are SOL as far as making any emergency light. In a life or death situation, I would prefer to be able to have a self-resetting circuit (with a delay perhaps to allow for some cell rebounding over time) that would permit me to extract as much as possible to provide light as needed.

For that reason I have sometimes used unprotected cells, which give you the ability to discharge the cell completely and damaging it, usually fatally. The big downside is it requires the user to be attentive of any dimming and shut the light down before the voltage drops below 2.5V for example. The lower the drop the greater the risk of Lithium BOOM during an attempted recharge. In life or death mode I'd prefer to deliberately kill some batteries to provide essential light, but thats an exception not the rule. At the very least I'd like to be able to limp along bit by bit by using the light for short bursts.

I wish I could have forwarded this notion to the folks responsible for the Pila redesign, would have been tops on my wish list of nice extras (self-reset with delay).


Also, your mention of the cell shoulder of Pilas pushing up the ground spring on SF lights is crucial. I offered that as an explanation to a fellow doing the extreme: three 168S cells in an SF M4 plus 2 A19 123 cell extenders (to make a 6x CR123 long body!!!) -- the modest cell length difference adds up -- in the attempt to make a Pila M4.

Glad the other material was so well recieved, hope you dont mind the rant here...

 

[MrMom]

Right on Lunar!

 

[SilverFox]

Hello Lunarmodule,

My ONLY gripe about Pilas is the way the protection circuit latches (remains) in the cell disconnected mode at the first instance of low voltage, when there is still some reserve energy left in the cell. Because they dont reset until placed on a charger, they dont give you a chance to use up the remaining power. This chance would be useful in emergencies or other times you might just want to just flash the light little by little sparingly to find your way back from a hike that took a bit longer than your expected runtime.

I view this as a benefit to using Pila cells. Since over discharging can damage the cell and cause safety issues, I think it is great that Pila uses a circuit that shuts things completely down.

I don't think it is a good idea to compromise safety for convenience. When my Pila driven light goes out, I simply put in my spare battery, or turn on my spare light...

Tom

 

[wptski]

Thanks fellows for the kind acknowledgements, glad to be of service


My ONLY gripe about Pilas is the way the protection circuit latches (remains) in the cell disconnected mode at the first instance of low voltage, when there is still some reserve energy left in the cell. Because they dont reset until placed on a charger, they dont give you a chance to use up the remaining power. This chance would be useful in emergencies or other times you might just want to just flash the light little by little sparingly to find your way back from a hike that took a bit longer than your expected runtime.

Lunarmodule:

I use a 5W BB750 powered by a 168S Pila at work and I was having a problem with it. The button on the two stage would work but constant ON wouldn't. I cleaned the battery pack ends, wipped off the solder blob, etc. and it worked. A few days latter the same thing happed again! This time nothing at all.

So, the first time the low voltage circuit would open up and close again. It all depends on the load.