Features that would make me buy another FourSevens light

[4sevens]

So i guess youre saying it will never happen so the main reasoning is you don't want the consumer charging their non protection circuit batteries in the lights? Thanks

It's more than that. I explained in my previous post. Safety first.

 

[Jose Marin]

What about the mmx360? That can use normal 18650s, isnt there a consumer risk for that light? Thanks

 

[eraursls1984]

What about the mmx360? That can use normal 18650s, isnt there a consumer risk for that light? Thanks

You can use an 18650 in either, but you can't charge them unless it's a Foursevens. They don't have a smart charger in them so the cell needs to have the proper protection circuit. If they allowed any battery to charge they'd risk people using unprotected, or cheap fake protected batteries. They could address this with the internal charger, but I assume that would add size to the light, as well as cost.

 

[Jose Marin]

Cool thanks for the info, makes sense now about not having a built in smart charger. Would make even more sense since 47s is concerned about saftey, have a built in smart charger and not just relying on the protection circuit in the battery. Thanks erausls

 

[4sevens]

What about the mmx360? That can use normal 18650s, isnt there a consumer risk for that light? Thanks

Yes you can but charging into an unknown cells is a serious risk. It's like blindly putting diesel into your car without knowing if your car can take diesel or petro.

 

[more_vampires]

It's more than that. I explained in my previous post. Safety first.

It sounds prudent to me for the average consumer, as this move bypasses less knowledgeable people concerning counterfeits and the whole Ultrafire scenario.

Don't miss the "Ultrafire filled with flour" fiasco!


You'd think with all the warnings we post that people would be safe from stuff like this.

The average consumer insists on finding the lowest price possible, thus leading themselves directly into risk for exactly this scenario.

 

[4sevens]

It sounds prudent to me for the average consumer, as this move bypasses less knowledgeable people concerning counterfeits and the whole Ultrafire scenario.

Don't miss the "Ultrafire filled with flour" fiasco!

Most manufacturers don't consider the safety of the customers. Especially the ones coming out of asia - they're mainly after volume and profit.

Yeah that ebay battery is ridiculous - I don't recommend doing what that guy did - if you did that with a regular 18650 you could have easily shorted it can cause a very big problem. Plus you're get lithium all over the place which is toxic.

Also notice all three of those batteries do not have protection. Using unprotected cells is just silly. It's worse than driving around with seat belts or wearing helmets. For us as a manufacturer it's equivalent of selling a car without seat belts.

By the way ultrafire routinely overstates their capacity. It's their way to cheat and trick customers into buying more of their cells.

 

[more_vampires]

Also notice all three of those batteries do not have protection. Using unprotected cells is just silly. It's worse than driving around with seat belts or wearing helmets. For us as a manufacturer it's equivalent of selling a car without seat belts.

I agree completely, like taking off a safety net and it wasn't required. Unprotected batteries are for enthusiast overdrive. I'd casually say that 99% of the market is not overdrive and covered with a 5 amp cutoff protected battery just fine.

By the way ultrafire routinely overstates their capacity. It's their way to cheat and trick customers into buying more of their cells.

Oh yes, not only that, but there are documented instances of re-wrapping old 18650 from laptop power packs and selling them as new!

If you knew this were the case, you'd be crazy to use that in a multibattery light. The problem is that the rewrapped batteries will look the same, can't guarantee that they were from the same batch.

Ultrafire: No thanks. We have documentation.

 

[4sevens]

Thats why Jose Marin's request/demand is not reasonable and very short sighted.

 

[eraursls1984]

Also notice all three of those batteries do not have protection. Using unprotected cells is just silly. It's worse than driving around with seat belts or wearing helmets. For us as a manufacturer it's equivalent of selling a car without seat belts.

Unless it's a light with protection built into the driver.

That is still a problem. What battery type of Li-ion is it? Lithium Cobalt Oxide (LiCoO2), Lithium Manganese Oxide (LiMn2O4), Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide (LiNiMnCoO2 or NMC), Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4), Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminum Oxide (LiNiCoAlO2), and Lithium Titanate. (Li4Ti5O12)?

All have different characteristics. A child seat for a 12year old is different than a 3 year old. You're asking for a car seat that fits an infant to an adult.

 

[more_vampires]

Unless it's a light with protection built into the driver.

Trust us, you want protection on the battery as well unless there is a technical reason not to do so.

Any layer of safety can fail.

 

[Jose Marin]

Thats why Jose Marin's request/demand is not reasonable and very short sighted.

Well i thought it was pretty reasonable especially when you have reputable manufacturers like olight featuring lights that charge regular 18650s, thought id throw my oponion in there because im a huge 47s customer and this is a thread for customer feed back and all i get it you won't budge so we'll just drop it lol

 

[more_vampires]

Maybe I'm biased, but I personally feel the old 47 has better quality and attention to detail than Olight. I've read a few reports of smaller Olights popping off a switch boot. That's really not good, it can be an indicator of minor battery venting. Not saying Olight is junk and that they're all firebombs waiting to happen, but IMHO Foursevens gets the quality nod from me.

My biggest problem with Foursevens is that I like the marque so much, I get really impatient waiting for new products. It isn't like "oh, I don't care if they release something new or not!" Personal problem, disregard.

 

[SemiMan]

And add a light-saber function. I want a red light-saber. Double-bladed, even better.

+1

 

[Chauncey Gardiner]

Putting the MMU-X3R on sale, would definitely be a feature that would make me buy another FourSevens light. :candle:

Come to Papa.

~ Chance

 

[KeepingItLight]

In-light Recharging

The growth of in-light recharging is an exciting development for Li-ion flashlights. It is especially important for those who have little experience with Li-ion. Without it, they would would be limited to NiMH. For experienced flashaholics, the picture is less clear.

For discerning flashlight owners, I think in-light recharging is a mixed bag. There is a definite place for it. In your car, for instance, it is convenient not to have to carry around a separate charger. Other times, you may run a light longer than you expected, and get caught with low batteries and no charger nearby. If you tote your EDC flashlight in a pack or purse—rather than in your pocket—you may find that that's a light where you prefer to have in-light recharging.

But it's a convenience that comes at a price. Flashlight size, weight, complexity, and points-of-failure are all increased somewhat when you add a charger to a light. As these tradeoffs demonstrate, building a high-quality charger may not be compatible with the goal of building a high-quality light. You like slow charging? You'll love in-light recharging.

Finally, there is the issue of price. Why should I keep paying to buy a new charger every time I buy a light? This is especially relevant because the in-light rechargers are likely to be of lower quality than the dedicated chargers I like to use at home.

Proprietary Batteries

The in-light rechargers will likely also mean a proprietary battery format. 4sevens recently went this way. It's probably done for safety, and perhaps ease of manufacturing. 4sevens probably doesn't want people putting an Ultrafire in their sealed light and charging it until it goes .

When your battery dies, you'd better hope the company is still in business AND is still making those proprietary batteries. In 3 years, when you need a new battery, what do you think the chances will be that your light is still being made? If your light isn't being made, there's not much reason for the company to still make batteries for it.

I think it all leads to manufactured obsolescence. Throw away your light in 3 years, because you won't be able to power it any more. Maybe that's good for the flashlight companies (they get to sell Joe Sixpack another light), but it's not good for the consumer.

Charging into an unknown cells is a serious risk. It's like blindly putting diesel into your car without knowing if your car can take diesel or petro.

"Charging into an unknown cell" is exactly what every stand-alone charger in the world does. Although that is normally safe, it certainly can be a "serious risk." Doing the same thing inside a water-tight flashlight is potentially more serious. That's because a venting event in the sealed body of a flashlight can lead to a rupture that sends the the tail cap and/or head flying at high velocity.

For this reason, it is easy to make the case that an in-light charger needs to have at least as many safeguards as its stand-alone cousin.

I have also argued that this risk exposes the manufacturer of a rechargeable flashlight to a significant legal liability. In another thread, I concluded that such flashlights should always be sold with "batteries included."

With any flashlight that features in-light recharging, there is a real motivation for the maker to include a battery. If they do otherwise, we know ahead of time that a certain percentage of yahoos (and some innocent, but ignorant, buyers) will buy the cheapest Ultra-trash they can find. When the inevitable in-light venting episodes follow, they will often include having the heads and/or tail caps blown off of the flashlights. This could be much more dangerous than a similar venting event in a stand-alone charger.

That's when the litigation starts.

I would not like to be an executive for a flashlight maker forced to testify that, sure, I knew a certain percentage of buyers would buy unsafe batteries. Sure, I knew a small percentage of them would experience dangerous venting episodes inside my product. Of course, I understood that some of them might be injured. None of that sounds good to a jury.

So, by including a quality battery at the time of purchase, and by further specifying that only batteries of similar quality should be used as replacements, a flashlight maker will reduce its exposure to litigation. If I were advising a flashlight manufacturer, I would probably recommend that a battery be included in any light that is rechargeable.

Where I disagree with Foursevens is its position that that battery must, in all cases, be a proprietary battery. I do not, however, find that the position adopted by Foursevens is unreasonable.

That said, my own decision is not to purchase the Foursevens models that use a proprietary battery.

 

[Jose Marin]

What an awesome post

 

[4sevens]

In-light Recharging

The growth of in-light recharging is an exciting development for Li-ion flashlights. It is especially important for those who have little experience with Li-ion. Without it, they would would be limited to NiMH. For experienced flashaholics, the picture is less clear.




Proprietary Batteries





"Charging into an unknown cell" is exactly what every stand-alone charger in the world does. Although that is normally safe, it certainly can be a "serious risk." Doing the same thing inside a water-tight flashlight is potentially more serious. That's because a venting event in the sealed body of a flashlight can lead to a rupture that sends the the tail cap and/or head flying at high velocity.

For this reason, it is easy to make the case that an in-light charger needs to have at least as many safeguards as its stand-alone cousin.

I have also argued that this risk exposes the manufacturer of a rechargeable flashlight to a significant legal liability. In another thread, I concluded that such flashlights should always be sold with "batteries included."



Where I disagree with Foursevens is its position that that battery must, in all cases, be a proprietary battery. I do not, however, find that the position adopted by Foursevens is unreasonable.

That said, my own decision is not to purchase the Foursevens models that use a proprietary battery.

1. All our flashlights include batteries - both rechargable and non-rechargable

2. We never said using our proprietary batteries is a must for our Maelstrom MMR-X. It works just fine with other 18650's. What is a must is to charge it from the built-in charger in the MMR-X. This makes a lot of sense from the points mentioned above. But the light functions just fine with all 18650.

 

[scout24]

I agree with 4sevens' choice to have their light safely charge their battery, and consider the ability to use any other 18650 cell a bonus. Good business choice, but a bonus. I know it's a dead horse, but offer warm and neutral white again. Even if you employ someone to do emitter swaps one at a time and charge accordingly...

 

[LedTed]

Ben Franklin: Open Source Pioneer.

Lets see ... Ben Franklin + Gadgets + deleted + British Spy = The first "Double O"