Firefoxes FF3 vs Polarion PH40 Beamshots comparison

[Doberman]

This is really interesting;
i just measured my FF3CWPP against my PH 40 (both after 1 min. startup) @2 meters with my Luxmeter in a room (had to chose 2 meters distance, at 1 meter both lights go over the Lux meters max. range of 200KLux).
The Polarion throws ca. 3 times more Lux on the sensor than the FF3 does (and this is rated 230 KLux@ 1meter (on a friends Lux meter that alows up to 500 KLux)).
So i would really suggest to make a sanity check on your PH.
You also can see a clear difference in my comparison shot in #24.
Or could it be, that i have a PH40 labeled PH50 ??

Regards

 

[Toppe]

This is really interesting;
i just measured my FF3CWPP against my PH 40 (both after 1 min. startup) @2 meters with my Luxmeter in a room (had to chose 2 meters distance, at 1 meter both lights go over the Lux meters max. range of 200KLux).
The Polarion throws ca. 3 times more Lux on the sensor than the FF3 does (and this is rated 230 KLux@ 1meter (on a friends Lux meter that alows up to 500 KLux)).
So i would really suggest to make a sanity check on your PH.
You also can see a clear difference in my comparison shot in #24.
Or could it be, that i have a PH40 labeled PH50 ??

Regards

Yes, totally interesting. I made some ceiling bounce tests again in a dark room (white color painted). 2meters to inner roof and flashlight on (let it settle ~3min) I use cheap lux/lumenmeter. I chose range 2000.

Polarion PH40: 232lux
Fire Foxes 3: 294lux

This Polarion PH40 used to be Vee73's and it doesn't have many hours running. I think that he would have known if this is not so powerfull "individual". He has owned many Polarion lights as u may know.

EDIT: Luxmeter was at the same level that the flashlight (on the bed) So no direct light to sensor, just ceiling bounce from inner roof.

EDIT2: Maybe your FF3 is a lot weaker than mine? Also my FF3 have much warmer colour temperature. Officially we tested that it is 4600k.

 

[Doberman]

Guess that Ceiling Bounce and direct sensor measurement are totally different approaches.
From it´s nature throwers should have a better performance in direct sensor measurement, because they focus the output to one spot; sesnor should measure more Lux than from a thrower, where the beam is distributed to a wider area.
This should be reflected better in a ceiling bounce test.
Could you try a sensor measurement at a distance where your Lux-meter is not outranged ? Would be very interested in the results.

-Doberman

 

[Toppe]

Guess that Ceiling Bounce and direct sensor measurement are totally different approaches.
From it´s nature throwers should have a better performance in direct sensor measurement, because they focus the output to one spot; sesnor should measure more Lux than from a thrower, where the beam is distributed to a wider area.
This should be reflected better in a ceiling bounce test.
Could you try a sensor measurement at a distance where your Lux-meter is not outranged ? Would be very interested in the results.

-Doberman

Yes they are, you are absolutely right about that. I'm not saying that ff3 wins ph40 if we measure brightness (hotspot) at further distances (ph40 wins, because it has brilliant reflector). I'm just talking about MAX light output (lumens) and that we can measure by integrated sphere system like labsphere fs2. Reflector size and beam profile is not so important in this test. But like i say, i will test my own ph40 against FF3 with integrated sphere and then we know which one has bigger light output...

If my ph40 loses also, then we have at least two broken polarions here in Finland, or do we?

-Toppe

 

[Zephrus]

Yes they are, you are absolutely right about that. I'm not saying that ff3 wins ph40 if we measure brightness (hotspot) at further distances (ph40 wins, because it has brilliant reflector). I'm just talking about MAX light output (lumens) and that we can measure by integrated sphere system like labsphere fs2. Reflector size and beam profile is not so important in this test. But like i say, i will test my own ph40 against FF3 with integrated sphere and then we know which one has bigger light output...

If my ph40 loses also, then we have at least two broken polarions here in Finland, or do we?

-Toppe

I think this whole thing is very interesting, and it will be interesting to see the result of the Labsphere tests. When I commented on Doberman's beamshots and said that the FF3 appeared more intense, I meant only that; that it "appeared" more intense. I'm just going by what my eye sees in the pics. I could have also said that the PH40 clearly has better throw, which is probably no surprise. Let's suppose that the PH40 and FF3 being used in Doberman's pics really are 4000 and 4200 lumens respectively. It would make sense that the FF3 would appear to have a greater intensity because much more of the emitted light is in the foreground, closer to the camera. And also for the reason that it has a wider, "floodier" beam, which again puts more of the energy right up front where it perceived as being more obvious.

The PH40 would throw more or most of its power downrange. Its beam is narrower and thus doesn't spill a lot of light right up front as the FF3 does. So I can easily see how the "illusion" might be created the FF3 has a good deal more output if one is going strictly by beamshots in pictures.

Another thing is that, operating at the 4000 and 4200 lumen range .... and in a logarithmic sense, a 200 lumen increase is almost inconsequential. It isn't like the difference between, say, 4000 lumens and 6500 lumens. So personally I think the relatively small difference between the two may be largely academic. If you want an HID that is almost strictly for throw, go with the PH40. IF you need something that has a fairly good throw (although not as much) but also floods a closer area, go with the FF3.

IMHO at the end of the day, it's all in how our eyes see it in real life, and the application for which we need the light for. If it works for us and we're satisfied, we have the right light.

 

[Toppe]

Ok guys, today we measured my FF3 and PH40. Measurement system: Labsphere FS2 (expensive as hell).

FF3 @ Labsphere FS2

PH40 @ Labsphere FS2
Polarion takes lot of current and brightens quickly but then drops lot. FF3:s start current is much less like we know, but who is the winner when light output is stable...

Do you guys think that my PH40 is broken? I really like Polarion products and respect their work so i really do hope that my ph40 is broken and NOT that polarion is cheating: "Lamp Output: 4,200 lamp lumens" <-© Polarion. Maybe there is some Polarion guy @ cpf who would like to tell his opinion.

Ps. Two different PH40:s shows almost same results...

-Toppe

 

[Zephrus]

Awesome stuff Toppe! :thumbsup:

I have to say, very interesting that your PH40 is dropping to around 3000 or a little below. Do you have perhaps another PH40 "control" you could test? Just seems strange or unlikely that the PH40 would be putting out less than 4000


EDIT: Maybe if someone else in here (Patriot?) has a PH40, you could compare notes with him on a simply Lux test @ X meters. Not as accurate as LabSphere but at least it might give you an idea?

EDIT 2: Oops didn't see your P.S. - Man, yeah that is weird with the PH40. Definitely at a loss to understand it :thinking: On the other hand the FF3 certainly fared extremely well in the test! Bright little monster! Don't know if you have one but if you ever get a chance do you think you could run a LS test on the MF 65W? Would love to know its true output as well.

 

[Toppe]

Awesome stuff Toppe! :thumbsup:

I have to say, very interesting that your PH40 is dropping to around 3000 or a little below. Do you have perhaps another PH40 "control" you could test? Just seems strange or unlikely that the PH40 would be putting out less than 4000


EDIT: Maybe if someone else in here (Patriot?) has a PH40, you could compare notes with him on a simply Lux test @ X meters. Not as accurate as LabSphere but at least it might give you an idea?

EDIT 2: Oops didn't see your P.S. - Man, yeah that is weird with the PH40. Definitely at a loss to understand it :thinking: On the other hand the FF3 certainly fared extremely well in the test! Bright little monster! Don't know if you have one but if you ever get a chance do you think you could run a LS test on the MF 65W? Would love to know its true output as well.

I don't have MF65W, so it's not possible to measure it right away. But if someone from Finland owns Magic Fire 65w, please send it to Taskulamput.fi store and i'm sure that they will test it with labsphere. Really nice shop, i recommend.

But yes, 4200 bulb lumens is really something else than 2900 lumens light output... That is the main "problem" now. Maybe i will contact Polarion next week.

Ps. FF3:s light pattern is so clean, compared against polarion, but mainly because it has different reflector. FF3 ~4100 lumen really is amazing!

 

[ma_sha1]

I don't think your PF40 is broken. You have measured two PF40 & the numbers are consistent.
These are the Only Lumen readings I've seen after reading many Polarion threads.

The polarion website listed the PH40 as 4200 lamp lumens, not out the front lumens.
http://www.polarion-store.com/pd-polarion-ph40.cfm

Your measurement is OTF lumens, which is typically ~70% of lamp lumens, as there are losses from reflector, lens as well as missed lights went back to the reflector hole at the base. 70% of 4200 is ~2900 lumens, so I'd say your measurement is spot on.

On the other hand, the FF3 measured over 4100 OTF lumens, that means it had to have around 5300 lamp lumens, incredible :thumbsup:.

Ok guys, today we measured my FF3 and PH40. Measurement system: Labsphere FS2 (expensive as hell).

FF3 @ Labsphere FS2

PH40 @ Labsphere FS2
Polarion takes lot of current and brightens quickly but then drops lot. FF3:s start current is much less like we know, but who is the winner when light output is stable...

Do you guys think that my PH40 is broken? I really like Polarion products and respect their work so i really do hope that my ph40 is broken and NOT that polarion is cheating: "Lamp Output: 4,200 lamp lumens" <-© Polarion. Maybe there is some Polarion guy @ cpf who would like to tell his opinion.

Ps. Two different PH40:s shows almost same results...

-Toppe

 

[Doberman]

Toppe,
first of all thanks for all the effort you put in that; really appreciate this.
Results seem to be obvious, and on the one hand i am really glad to own two of these little light monster cans.
On the other hand i am a bit concerned about the overall output of the PH40 which disappoints me.
If ma_sha1´s assumption that typical loss from Lamp lumens to OTF is about 30% is correct, we would have the reason for the difference.
Did not really recognize this small but obviously important difference.
I think i´ll ask the Polarion guys for the OTF Lumens; they should be able to provide that info.

Again thanks for that measurements.

 

[Toppe]

I'm just really confused that this 40w really high quality flashlight produces only 2900lumens. Damn, because i don't know who here owns ph50, i think it might be near to lose against FF...

 

[Zephrus]

I'm just really confused that this 40w really high quality flashlight produces only 2900lumens. Damn, because i don't know who here owns ph50, i think it might be near to lose against FF...

Hopefully Patriot will check this thread. AFAIK he is the goto Polarion guy around here, as he seems to have dealing with them for a long time. I know he has a PH50 and also the CSWL Night Reaper.

I don't necessarily think Polarion is "shorting" anybody here. Just an opinion, but remember that the FF3, as awesome as it is, still has the heating/kick-down issue. That's something the Polarions do not do. Fire Foxes is putting a TON of light into a very small package. It could almost be considered a miracle it works as well as it does for at least 5-10 minutes (going off the posts I've read here).

The Polarions have flawless electroformed SMO reflectors. They're designed to be "military grade" and I believe have a MILSPEC rating if I'm not mistaken. Like ma sh1 said, they are in fact 4200 lamp lumens, not OTF. They are designed to be throwers, and like Doberman said, the PH40 does indeed throw further than the FF3 (despite the FF3's higher overall output). I have to admit it was kind of nice to know that my eyes weren't being totally deceived in the first pics that Doberman posted of the PH40 vs the FF3. It just "looked" like that little FF3 beast had more output overall. But I can understand what he was saying about the PH40 throwing further.

Right now I can't wait to get my MF65W, which came out at only 15 Lux lower than the PH50 did in ceiling bounce Lux tests that mohanjude did! I'm sure it's not quite the thrower the PH50 is but still it's putting out some serious power and hopefully is around 4800-4900 Lumens (although it still suffers the same deficiencies as the FF3 due to it's small size and low mass).

 

[ledmitter_nli]

Ok guys, today we measured my FF3 and PH40. Measurement system: Labsphere FS2 (expensive as hell).

FF3 @ Labsphere FS2

PH40 @ Labsphere FS2
Polarion takes lot of current and brightens quickly but then drops lot. FF3:s start current is much less like we know, but who is the winner when light output is stable...

Do you guys think that my PH40 is broken? I really like Polarion products and respect their work so i really do hope that my ph40 is broken and NOT that polarion is cheating: "Lamp Output: 4,200 lamp lumens" <-© Polarion. Maybe there is some Polarion guy @ cpf who would like to tell his opinion.

Ps. Two different PH40:s shows almost same results...

-Toppe

Wow. Disappointing. Even my SST-90 LED Eagletac MX25L2 is pushing 2100+lums out the front. Pay $1,900 more for an extra 800 lumens?

I find this a deal breaker.