Gas consumption while idling(parked)

[gadget_lover]

There are problems with killing the engine each time you stop. In most cars, anyway.

First is the wear and tear on the starter. The standard starter has a fairly short lifespan. It's not unusual for them to wear out in only 10 years under normal use. Add 10 times the usage and the time between failure may become unacceptable.

Second is the drain on the battery. The modern car often has a battery that is just barely big enough. In stop and go driving you may run down the battery if you stop it every time you come to a stop. Even if it does not go dead, the deeper discharge may cause it to die early.

The hybrids are designed with these problems in mind. The higher capacity battery pack can handle the drain, and the motors are rated for 100% duty cycle. A great deal of their fuel savings happen when they stop the motor at stop signs and other times that it's not needed.

Daniel

 

[paulr]

I've heard of electrically heated dip sticks. You just stick them into the oil hole and they warm up the engine. I'd imagine you could even put on one a timer to start warming the engine an hour or so before you wake up, instead of leaving it running all night.

 

[alaskawolf]

Are you saying that Amsoil 0W will freeze solid on you?

.

yes it has at -50F and colder

 

[Lightmeup]

There are problems with killing the engine each time you stop. In most cars, anyway.

First is the wear and tear on the starter. The standard starter has a fairly short lifespan. It's not unusual for them to wear out in only 10 years under normal use. Add 10 times the usage and the time between failure may become unacceptable.

Second is the drain on the battery. The modern car often has a battery that is just barely big enough. In stop and go driving you may run down the battery if you stop it every time you come to a stop. Even if it does not go dead, the deeper discharge may cause it to die early.

Daniel

I say the tradeoff depends on how long you're going to idle and how often you do it. Battery systems are designed to handle this, I don't see the problem there. Got any links?

 

[gadget_lover]

Links to the problems with killing the engine?

Ther was an article in either pop sci or pop mechanics in the late 1990's that explained the whole thing. It pointed out that the average driver could conserve a lot (I don't remember how much) if their cars were set up to handle killing and restarting the engines. I'm pretty sure that's the definition of a mild hybrid. Detroit was supposedly working on a standard for lights, radios, etc so that they would handle the increased voltage.

The article talked at length about one solution, and that is to use 24volt to 48 volt systems. The higher voltage prevents damage to the batteries caused by excessive current/depletion. The second component is an integrated flywheel / starter / generator. The concept could be integrated into virtually every car's current design.

The reason for the integrated flywheel / starter / generator is threefold. It saves space to use the flywheel. It allows you to spin the engine up to speed instantaneously when you push the gas pedal since it is always enganged (no bendix gears) . It allows a bigger generator to replenish the battery quicker.

I don't understand why this has not been done en mass. If it's patents that are blocking progress, then maybe the govenment should simply appropriate the patents via some national security/public good mandate. It's not like it's not an obvious idea. The only reason it was not a standard feature 50 years ago is the lack of controling electronics and fuel ejectors to make it clean.


Daniel

 

[gadget_lover]

See the last two paragraphs of this article for mention of the 42 volt standard.

Dan

http://www.popsci.com/popsci/printe...efcd3bcc2eb84010vgnvcm1000004eecbccdrcrd.html

 

[Eugene]

The 42volt systems are starting to appear in vehicles already. Another of the reasons for it is to have a mild hybrid you need something to keep other systems running when the engine stops. So you are now going to see vehicles with electric power steering and electric brake boosters and throttle by wire.

 

[cobb]

I think the cold starting and drive my old mercedes 5 miles 3 times a day helped to kill it. Went through 2 sets of glow plugs, a battery and to rod noise. Maybe the use of starting fluid screwed it up, but if it aint got enough compression to start on its own with new plugs, its shot to begin with.

 

[chevrofreak]

I hate it when I see people sitting in a parking lot with their engines running to power AC (*especially when it's 65' out). Don't they know we're at war for oil?

I hate it when people judge my actions because I don't want to bake to death inside my vehicle in the hot summer sun while waiting for something/someone.

I also hate it when people say this war is about oil.

 

[iNDiGLo]

I hate it when I see people sitting in a parking lot with their engines running to power AC (*especially when it's 65' out). Don't they know we're at war for oil?

Last time i checked i decided how to spend my money. To each his own i suppose.

 

[Norm]

i perfer to use Amsoil 0W oils in winter time

I prefer to live were these problems are unheard of.
Norm

 

[cbxer55]

My 2006 Suzuki M109R motorcycle owners manual recommends a few minutes of warm up prior to riding.
Also strange is the oil level check technique. It is a semi-dry sump engine so this has to be followed to insure accuracy.
"Idle engine for 15 minutes, shut off and keep vehicle vertical for 3 minutes, Check oil at this time with bike vertical."
So I simply check the oil level upon returning from a ride with the engine already warm.
If you are driving your vehicle really short distances it is better to warm it up before driving. Really short distance driving causes problems like rust in the exhaust system, contaminants in the oil that do not burn off because theoil did not get hot enough. The detergent in oil only works when the oil reachs operating temp. It is highly recommended that oil reach operating temperature and stay there for at least 15 minutes. If you are not doing this, change your oil more frequently than 3000 miles.
The catalytic converter does not operate until it is hot. Driving with the cat cold causes more pollution than idling it for a few minutes to get things hot.

THIS WAR IS NOT ABOUT OIL!!!!
GEEZ, some people.

 

[alaskawolf]

I prefer to live were these problems are unheard of.
Norm

lets trade locations its -26F right now :hairpull: my car is plugged in too

 

[MarNav1]

I think your average M1 Abrams gets about 3-4 gallons per mile, where's the dealer
ship? Parked? Who knows? No wonder diesel is so expensive!

 

[gadget_lover]

The catalytic converter does not operate until it is hot. Driving with the cat cold causes more pollution than idling it for a few minutes to get things hot.

While there is a grain of truth there, it works the other way.

Yes, the engine runs richer when cold, and the cat converter has to heat up before it starts to work efficiently. The average car produces more polution in the first few minutes than it does for the rest of a short trip. BUT... Running at idle for a few minutes will burn the same gas as if you were driving slowly without getting any benefit since it is not moving the car at all. It's just 100% wasted energy.

So the "experts" have advised for quite a while that a fuel injected, catalytic converter equiped car be driven without sitting at idle first. The only warm up needed is the few seconds it takes to buckle the seatbelt and back up.

I just woke up, so I didn't bother to look up any links to the experts.... Maybe later.


Daniel

 

[2xTrinity]

While there is a grain of truth there, it works the other way.

Yes, the engine runs richer when cold, and the cat converter has to heat up before it starts to work efficiently. The average car produces more polution in the first few minutes than it does for the rest of a short trip. BUT... Running at idle for a few minutes will burn the same gas as if you were driving slowly without getting any benefit since it is not moving the car at all. It's just 100% wasted energy.

So the "experts" have advised for quite a while that a fuel injected, catalytic converter equiped car be driven without sitting at idle first. The only warm up needed is the few seconds it takes to buckle the seatbelt and back up.

I just woke up, so I didn't bother to look up any links to the experts.... Maybe later.

Daniel

Anther point is that while letting the car sit and idle will warm it up, none of the other components -- such as the bearings, transmission, and other moving parts get warmed up in the process -- so there will still be a bit of a loss of efficiency until all those get warmed up too (whcih requires the vehicle to be moving). I've read from many sources what you just said -- light driving is the most efficient way to warm up the engine, as the same total amount of gas/heat is needed for the engine to warm up, but when moving, at least some of that is being put to use.

I hate it when people judge my actions because I don't want to bake to death inside my vehicle in the hot summer sun while waiting for something/someone.

I agree with this. Honestly I see this as more of a fault of the auto manufacturers than anything -- there is no reason that people should have to idle continuously to keep from baking in hot cars.

Implement the engine start/stop system on a wide scale would make a huge difference. In addition to the ability for the engine to shut itself off at idle, it can also start and stop in "pulses" as needed to run air conditoining compressors, or heaters, or recharge batteries -- these pulses are a lot more efficient than running the engine at partial load continuously.

Also, cars really shoudl be designed so they don't get as hot in the first place -- such as coating windows to block all IR, and implementing better circulation systems that allow more airflow. These are the sort of things that bother me about modern cars.

 

[MarNav1]

Guys there is no shortage and there never was. Idle your Hemi all you want! You may as well ask how much fuel a C5a uses while idling? Or Columbia? How about a weedeater?

 

[cbxer55]

Its all a moot point to me. Since I started driving I have done the warm up thing. That is 30 years now. You do not change what you have been doing for 30 years because some "EXPERT" says it is not a good thing!
F--- the EXPERT!
I warm my vehicle up until I see the temperature gauge needle start to move, then go driving. Always have, always will. My motorcycle has a converter, and when it says to warm up for a few minutes before operating, I believe I will do what the owners manual states, not what the "EXPERT" thinks I should do.
During the winter, I start my car up 10 minutes before I am ready to leave. Then go out and turn the heater on and let it run another 5 minutes. Nice and toasty when I get in to go.:thumbsup:
My vehicle is a 1998 Ford Ranger V-6 with too many performance mods ro list, requires the use of 93 octane to prevent pinging. I still don'r have a problem letting it warm up.

OLD HABITS DIE HARD!

Mu advice to the expert.

 

[cobb]

Id do what the owner manuals says. My scion xa sayd not to idle or warm it up, just drive. My benz said something about warming it up and different settings for idle adjustment and throttle position for starting. The benzes with the automatic would lock out certan gears to allow it to warm up quicker.

Regardless, my scion warms up as i leave my driveway.