High CRI LED vs. Good Incan?

[flashfiend]

A well driven incan will give you more spectrum than an LED will therefore they do better at that task.

That said, I'm a strong believer in that it is each individual's perspective that is most important. What might work better for one individual may not work so well for another individual. I believe many of you have made reference to this and I agree.

I use both depending on the task at hand.

+1 to the end of your post but I was wondering if there is a spectrographic diagram that supports the first part of the quoted statement. I recall McGizmo posting a comparison of the Nichia 083 LED with the Maui noon sun with such a diagram. Any similar graphic to show that comparison with an incan?

*****Found it on my own

*****
btw, Good splicing Tally-Ho.

 

[Icebreak]

I wonder if they'll ever be able to combine within one emitter the capability to mimic the wide ranging spectrum of incan bulbs, to the point to where they'd be satisfactory even to dedicated incan users.

I believe they will eventually. It may take a new materiel in the substrata, maybe a combination ala alloyesque. I'm not really sure how but they have done some amazing things in the last ten years. I can imagine that, sure.

 

[pjandyho]

This is my opinion. I love incand and how it brings out colors and depth perception especially for use in the outdoors, but incands are only good if one is using the high powered ones that produces light that is nearer to white than orange. Ironically, high powered incands proves to be downright inefficient. I recall the days when all my lights are incands, SF M6; M3; M2; E2e; E1e; Streamlight Scorpion; and so on, and the only LED I have is an Inova X5T and later on a Luxeon 1 watt KL1 LED head with the NX05 optics for use on my E1e. Much as I love those incands, they consume batteries like how a Ferrari would consume gas. One could always mod the original configuration with some after-market bulbs, bi-pins and even Lamp Assemblies from Lumens Factory and run them off rechargeables, but one would still need to bring along plenty of spare batteries just to ensure a healthy supply just so one wouldn't be caught in a complete blackout less supplies are depleted.

LEDs have evolved greatly since the days of it's infancy where a 5mm Nichia is the brightest thing one has ever seen, and they continue to evolve. Currently the high CRI offerings from Nichia and SSC might not be up to standards when compared to high powered incands, in my opinion they are almost there. The benefits of LEDs are many compared to incands. They include very good efficiency, meaning higher lumens per watt which could result in a very long runtime, and also the ability to allow makers to design lights with multiple output levels, something we don't see in an incand setup. This is what I call progress. I strongly believed that it won't be long before LED reaches the color reproduction that incands are producing.

I am a firm believer that when technology evolved, one too must follow along or be left out. I am a photographer and I remember those days when I am still very much a film shooter and digital cameras are beginning to progress. Some old school shooters lament about how digital technology could not beat film and that manufacturers should stop wasting time on improving digital technology but I chose to go forward and bought my first digital camera. Ever since digital has progressed so much I am no longer shooting on film and I believe that 90% of photographers are currently shooting digitally. In fact, for the last 8 years I have not had a single request from my client to provide them images on film.

 

[Icebreak]

+1 to the end of your post but I was wondering if there is a spectrographic diagram that supports the first part of the quoted statement. I recall McGizmo posting a comparison of the Nichia 083 LED with the Maui noon sun with such a diagram. Any similar graphic to show that comparison with an incan?

*****Found it on my own

*****
btw, Good splicing Tally-Ho.

No comparisons of sunlight to incandescent light that I know of but at http://ledmuseum.org/ there are some incan spectrographs. Just go to the page and, using the scroll bar on the left go down a little more than a 3rd of the way. Faster still is to use your Ctrl F function and type in [FONT=Verdana, Arial][FONT=Verdana, Arial]INCANDESCENT & FLUORESCENT FLASHLIGHTS [/FONT][/FONT]and that "Find:" function will take you there. I've never seen a super performer like a WA1185 graphed but many of those incan lights on his page have graphs. You might be able to create an overlay or simply interpolate a comparison.

 

[Icebreak]

snip...incands are only good if one is using the high powered ones that produces light that is nearer to white than orange. Ironically, high powered incands proves to be downright inefficient...snip

The more overdriven the more efficacy in an incan. Some of the new combinations of batteries and lamps are much more efficient than say a mag off the shelf however so much of the output is radiometric instead of photometric they don't compete well with LEDs in runtime. This is why some of us got pretty excited about the advent of IRC lamps that reflected infrared "heat" back to the filiment which increased efficacy by reconsuming that heat as power and returning some of it as photometric or visible light.

You see, many of us realized that all these wattage calculators we were using weren't considering that when rating lumens efficacy.

But I see where you are coming from. My big, long running (over an hour) incans can be a load to carry. This somewhat decreases my own parabulative efficacy. I've gotten used to them and do often carry them on long hikes but most people want something easy to carry, bright and long running and LEDs provide that capability.

 

[kaichu dento]

I believe they will eventually. It may take a new materiel in the substrata, maybe a combination ala alloyesque. I'm not really sure how but they have done some amazing things in the last ten years. I can imagine that, sure.

I know I've read somewhere here about emitters that would eventually be capable of made of tiny portions of the emitter producing specific wavelengths and I hope that sometime within the next couple of years they'll be able to put it all together in emitters that produce a full 100 CRI.

LEDs have evolved greatly since the days of it's infancy where a 5mm Nichia is the brightest thing one has ever seen, and they continue to evolve. Currently the high CRI offerings from Nichia and SSC might not be up to standards when compared to high powered incands, in my opinion they are almost there. The benefits of LEDs are many compared to incands. They include very good efficiency, meaning higher lumens per watt which could result in a very long runtime, and also the ability to allow makers to design lights with multiple output levels, something we don't see in an incand setup. This is what I call progress. I strongly believed that it won't be long before LED reaches the color reproduction that incands are producing.

I too was very happy with the high CRI P4 in my Clicky when I first got it, and still like them quite a bit, but one area in which I don't like them is the tint shift from the center of the beam to the flood where, if I recall correctly, went from white> greenish yellow > purplish. This is where I love the 7B in my Q MiNi as there is no tint shift, or at least not pronounced enough that I've ever noticed it.

In addition to the points you've made, and I've said earlier, I also prefer LED's for their dimmability.

I am a firm believer that when technology evolved, one too must follow along or be left out. I am a photographer and I remember those days when I am still very much a film shooter and digital cameras are beginning to progress. Some old school shooters lament about how digital technology could not beat film and that manufacturers should stop wasting time on improving digital technology but I chose to go forward and bought my first digital camera. Ever since digital has progressed so much I am no longer shooting on film and I believe that 90% of photographers are currently shooting digitally. In fact, for the last 8 years I have not had a single request from my client to provide them images on film.

I have a friend who is an optics designer in Japan, and quite proud of his film cameras. During my first trip to Japan back in 1997, I expressed the hope for digital cameras to improve more quickly than they were, but that I was positive that within 10 years they would be good enough that professionals would be using them on a regular basis. He insisted that they would never be taken up by pros, even in decades to come and that film would always reign supreme. The most recent time I saw him he had a digital...

I was actually off by years in my assumption and I'm glad for it!

 

[flashfiend]

Thanks for that. Good link and I know one shouldn't rely on objective spectographs to compare what one sees subjectively like color, but it's good to know that incans still have their advantages. As for incan use, levels, and efficiency, have any of you played with any of the regulated custom options. Certainly, they are not as small and compact as LED's can be nor can they have the same runtime but they do help and they definitely allow levels. Now if only I can get my hands on one. :mecry:

No comparisons of sunlight to incandescent light that I know of but at http://ledmuseum.org/ there are some incan spectrographs. Just go to the page and, using the scroll bar on the left go down a little more than a 3rd of the way. Faster still is to use your Ctrl F function and type in [FONT=Verdana, Arial][FONT=Verdana, Arial]INCANDESCENT & FLUORESCENT FLASHLIGHTS [/FONT][/FONT]and that "Find:" function will take you there. I've never seen a super performer like a WA1185 graphed but many of those incan lights on his page have graphs. You might be able to create an overlay or simply interpolate a comparison.

 

[pjandyho]

I too was very happy with the high CRI P4 in my Clicky when I first got it, and still like them quite a bit, but one area in which I don't like them is the tint shift from the center of the beam to the flood where, if I recall correctly, went from white> greenish yellow > purplish. This is where I love the 7B in my Q MiNi as there is no tint shift, or at least not pronounced enough that I've ever noticed it.

I am sorry that you find the high CRI not up to your taste. I agree that the beam may be kind of weird with the cooler hotspot graduating into a warmer corona. I hardly use the high CRI at home with all the white wall around and since I have the 140GT as well as the 170T to keep me company, I prefer to use them instead of the high CRI.

The high CRI was used in the field mainly and if you have seen a recent thread by me regarding trekking with high CRI and seen all the beamshots, you would realize that I the environment in which I utilize the high CRI to be where a lot of greens and browns are present. That is where the high CRI really stands out. I have compared the high CRI to some of my neutral white lights like the MiNi AA Q3 5A and the latest MiNi AA R4 neutral, and also Zebralight SC50w, and I find the high CRI still produces better color and depth rendition. The differences though may not be much but it does give me enough reasons to like the high CRI more than any neutral white lights I have.

Regards,
Andy

 

[kaichu dento]

I am sorry that you find the high CRI not up to your taste. I agree that the beam may be kind of weird with the cooler hotspot graduating into a warmer corona. I hardly use the high CRI at home with all the white wall around and since I have the 140GT as well as the 170T to keep me company, I prefer to use them instead of the high CRI.

I do like the high CRI emitters, but just as we keep looking for perfection, I personally have preference for the simple Cree emitters in warmer tints, where I generally have not seen the tint shift across the beam pattern as I have with the P4 and GDP emitters.

 

[LEDAdd1ct]

I just read this thread over from start to end (not the first time, but needed a refresher), and unless I missed it, up until now the discussion has not included the new high CRI XP-G emitters and how they fare with respect to the thread title.

So:

Is there anyone out there who owns a "good" incan (as per the thread title) and a light with an XP-G of 90 CRI inside that would be willing to share their thoughts? Curious minds would like to know...

 

[kromeke]

You guys sound like audiophiles with your "depth" and other intangibles. If it can't be measured, and you didn't do a double blind test, it doesn't register in my book.

As far as I know, nobody has made an flashlight with an LED emitter with a 100 CRI. Doesn't yet exist, LEDs with a CRI at 100. Therefore, any comparison of an LED with a 100 CRI source will be skewed.

I would also add that just because it is incandescent, doesn't mean it also has a color rendering index of 100. Not all incandescents are driven to the limit, because it limits lamp lifetime.

I can believe that you guys have a preference for one source for another, whether it is LED or incandescent, but don't think that because of the technology, you cannot have equivalents.

 

[csshih]

Is there anyone out there who owns a "good" incan (as per the thread title) and a light with an XP-G of 90 CRI inside that would be willing to share their thoughts? Curious minds would like to know...

I met with a local cpf member at a coffee shop recently and we were talking flashlights - of course! He stated that he loved the tint of the P61 dropin, and was showing it to me.
Naturally, I pulled out a Malkoff M61HCRI and at first, he thought it was an incan!

Granted, we were shining it on some sort of tiled floor but that's how it went.

Now, when I got back home I was comparing it to incan P90s and P60s. The P90 and P60 were actually higher CCT than the 3000K (90+ CRI) XP-G, but I was using brand new batteries.
I wonder how much the incandescent bulb changes in CCT as the batteries drain?

-Craig

 

[LEDAdd1ct]

Does anyone have beamshots of the XP-G 90 high CRI compared to a P60 incan?

 

[purplequark]

of all the commercial LED offerings i have seen so far, no one has listed CRI to my knowledge.... usually only color temp in kelvins.

has anyone seen commercial LED for home/commercial use that specifies the CRI outright?

thanks.

 

[Brasso]

The M61hcri has pretty much satisfied my incan craving. It's a tad warmer, but close enough for me. The additional run time seals the deal.

 

[pjandyho]

The M61hcri has pretty much satisfied my incan craving. It's a tad warmer, but close enough for me. The additional run time seals the deal.

Agreed 100%

 

[flashy bazook]

Don ("McGizmo") offers the new Nichia 183 LED in his line of custom flashlights (the "high CRI" versions).

I had the pleasure of taking one of these on a recent trip, including time spent outdoors, in a forest environment.

Very nice and useable. In terms of lumens, you get more than you would for the HDS (or "Ra") high CRI version, at least the version that used to be sold, since none are yet available in the new, rotary, version of the flashlight. Somewhere around 120+ lumens, vs. 100.

If you want a higher lumen option, I would suggest the Malkoff M31W drop-in, with a titanium VME head. Then just by switching heads on the McGizmo "pak", you can get a 210 lumen output in a warmer tint. I don't have that drop-in yet to provide an impression, but reviews I have read seem very positive. Before my next trip I hope to order the M31W, but that's not for several months yet.

Personally I prefer throw to flood, not least since it's very easy to carry a diffuser if I need flood (mainly indoors, and for reading). The reflector Don designed was amazing, giving out plenty of useable throw. So the Nichia 183 gives you both high CRI and does not sacrifice outdoors useability.

One more thing, if you examine the specs of the Nichia 183 (you can download the whole series in one brochure at the Nichia website), it looks to be ideally placed vs. the natural sunlight spectrum. Of course this would be an "average" light measurement since, as we all know, the LED spectrum frequency is hardly flat, but is generally speaking bimodal.

Anyway, I know Don's lights are expensive, but if price is no object, it's a wonderful solution.

 

[kaichu dento]

Not a high CRI, but I compared my new Streamlight Scorpion to my warm MiNi this evening and loved both. From beam pattern to tint and the way colors rendered I found myself at once wishing I could dim the Scorpion, and thankful that I have some of the warm MiNi's.

 

[LEDAdd1ct]

I'm waiting for an LED with 90+ CRI at around 3300K.

 

[Timothybil]

Lumens Factory sells a 90 CRI D26(P60) drop in that is also available in neutral white. It is a Cree XP-G.
To quote from their specifications page:
-High Output Cree XP-G, Warm White 90-CRI LED (Max Output 350 Lumens)
-3.6V-13V Regulated Input for Maximum Flexibility
- 3 Mode (Low-Mid-High with Memory, 5%-30%-100%)
-Maximum Current Output at 1000mA
(Not Overdriven to Ensure Maximum Durablility and Reliability)
-Constant Output
-Warm White, Warm Colour Temperature (2600K-3200K)
-90-CRI, Ultra High Colour Rendition

Since this is a drop in the lumens quoted are die lumens, I believe.

I have one and compared it to a P60 that came with my G2. It is just not quite as yellow, but comes very close to matching the P60.