How many lumens does it take to REALLY mess up an attacker?

[carrot]

No offense to you at all, Ligament -- but is it just me, or are these "blind an attacker" threads getting annoying? They multiply like bunnies.

 

[NeonLights]

.........If you are forcing someone to close their eyes, turn their head, shield their eyes, etc., you have totally overwhelmed their visual abilities. At that stage you have "really messed up an attacker" and have gained a tremendous advantage.

Scott

.......and if the attacker has a gun, he shoots at the light. Advantage attacker. If the attacker is close enough and aggitated enough, he lunges towards the person with the light (doesn't require much visual acuity) and tackles them, advantage attacker. If the attacker has a knife and can run faster the person with the light and a light in his face pisses him off, the person with the light gets stabbed. Advantage attacker.

I'd invite anyone who thinks a light is a good self defense weapon to try and "mess me up with it" at a range of 20-30'. Assuming the flashlight in question isn't a Tigerlight or ASP batonlight, I'll bet good money I can mess up the person with the flashlight a whole lot more than 500+ lumens would mess me up.

-Keith

 

[tsask]

.......and if the attacker has a gun, he shoots at the light. Advantage attacker. If the attacker is close enough and aggitated enough, he lunges towards the person with the light (doesn't require much visual acuity) and tackles them, advantage attacker. If the attacker has a knife and can run faster the person with the light and a light in his face pisses him off, the person with the light gets stabbed. Advantage attacker.

I'd invite anyone who thinks a light is a good self defense weapon to try and "mess me up with it" at a range of 20-30'. Assuming the flashlight in question isn't a Tigerlight or ASP batonlight, I'll bet good money I can mess up the person with the flashlight a whole lot more than 500+ lumens would mess me up.

-Keith

Excellent points !!I've the exact same thing.
a lot of very good points here. My pal "Radar", a 40 Kg Ger Shep has good night vision and can also smell and hear the location of an invading assailant murderer etc .His innate familaity of the domicile and his knowledge of likely paths of human movement are outstanding attributes as well! Two more things I like about Radar are that he doesn't drink (he'll never be too impared to react and use judgement)
and he does not "go off" accidently!
I've often wondered about lighting up or exposing the defender's position when watching an self illuminated Cop on TV etc walking thought a darkend warehouse etc etc. The thought of walking into a room, hallway, or down a staircase, telescoping my arrival and precise location,is then followed by thoughts of war film footage depicting bloody ambushes and unexcpected slaughter. it make sense that a hidden adversary would benefit from a easily visable target. OTOH is seems possible that enough brightness or power could blind or stun an attacker. I dont have any suggestions as to how this much power could be packaged, powered?:thinking:
It appears that something MUCH more powerful than 500 lumens would be needed. of course all bets are off if the adversary has eye protection in anticipation of such a counterstrike.
I would think there could be much speculation and need? for this type of capability in places where "projectile based kinetic weaponry" is not allowed for the citizenry.:help:

 

[hquan]

I believe that this will do the job very nicely.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/92396&page=1

Of course, you'll want the optional tank that goes with it.

 

[Flakey]

i think a mag100 would do very nicely especially in a 4d host. i know from experiecne that the 1300L from my mag35 is impossible to look at from less than 10 feet. also the mag body makes a good impact weapon. just blinding an assailent is useless if you dont use your moment of opportunity to do somthing!

 

[beezaur]

This drives me nuts. Someone asks about the effects of lights, even states

Of course I would not rely on a flashlight for defense . . .

yet the answers always tend toward weapons.

Some of the logic here. . . I think some opinions would change with the opportunity to try some of these theories in person.

Scott

 

[The Porcupine]

Can't contribute much in the "hard facts" department of this, but on new years eve, my wife flashed my KL1/VG combo at two drunks trying to blow up a mailbox!
One of them looked away and was just suprised, while the other guy turned more or less blind and almost fell face down in the snow, trying to get away!
Both of them ran, so it obviously worked and my wife was amused to say the least! Of course she swore her G2 would have been better!:lolsign:

 

[uz2busmc]

Just flip the light switch and give your intruder the opportunity to see what is being pointed at them. Hopefully the lightbulb provides enough "lumens" for them to see the way out.

.45 cal brightness, depends on powder type, length of barrel, porting... brightness might not register as other things will be racing through your mind at the time you pull the trigger in actual SD situation.

 

[Lunal_Tic]

I was under the impression that the tactical effect of a light, particularly at close range, was the surprise element. If they look away for an instant the advantage is yours to use.

IIRC size15s was taken down by a Surefire rep and a E1e and he's not small. The key would be surprise and immediate follow-up action IMO.

-LT

 

[mdocod]

In my own personal tinkering with lights... I had to try looking into my thor... I set it accross the room on a chair- stepped back about 10 feet, and slowly lowered myself into the beam.

My eyes were open while looking into the light, but not looking into the focsed light (just spillbeam, basically just looking into the filament from the side at 10 feet away)... so at this point my eyes were very adjusted for the bright light... I slowly lowered myself so that the beam would be on my face, and as I came close, I SHUT my eyes (on purpose, don't want to cause perminant damage), then moved in front of the beam.

Even with my eyes shut, the light and heat going through my eyelids was extremally uncomfortable. The back of my eyelids were bright, when I tried to squint an eye open I had to move out of the beam.

even having said that- I would not rely on even the thor to garantee any advantage in a combat senario. (it would still do more damage as an impact weapon).

 

[mdocod]

oh- and on a sidenote:

it does seem that lumen-per-lumen, LEDs are much more devistating to the eyes than incan... The lensed river rock 2xAA and my LEDBEAM both are similarly blinding as the HP-G90 lamp (which has significantly more lumens)

 

[NeonLights]

The key to using a light for a "tactical" purpose is to have something to back it up. LEO's will typically have a gun handy, if not in hand when illuminating an attacker. If the situation doesn't warrant a lethal weapon, they'll probably have a baton or OC spray in hand. Sometimes a light alone will discourage a person from messing with you, but a person intent on doing you harm will likely not be deterred by a light alone. What if it is more than one person coming at you? Can you temporarily blind more than one person with any light effectively enough to ensure your safety?

-Keith

 

[LEDcandle]

You all are overlooking the most decisive thing:
My understanding is that lumen is a measure of the overall light output. It should be clear that for your purpose only the light shining in one's eyes is what counts, so you will need -above all- a light with a good, tight focus. I have a SureFire E1L (KL1 head, new generation) which outputs only about 30 lumens but has a very narrow focus. I'm sure that at night it will make someone blind for quite some seconds! I also have an U2, which outputs about 4 times the lumens the E1L does, but since it has a wider focus I guess it would be "only" about as good as the E1L at blinding someone.

Yesh yesh, its lux that counts more for blinding, not lumens. Of course more light is always better for this purpose, but the collimation matters most.

I can look into my 50w 38º magmod with squinted eyes but when I swap it to a 10º version (21,000 lux), no way I can look into tat, esp not at near distance.

 

[CM]

...so you will need -above all- a light with a good, tight focus...

If you're totally in the dark, the tight focus is to YOUR detriment. Are you going to be able to hit that pair of eyes exactly (remember you have very little sidespill) with that tight focus? Try hitting a five inch circle with a thin beam from 7 to 10 yards. Do it within one second or less. Remember, it's totally dark and you don't know with 100% certainty where that 5 inch circle is in front of you. Also, remember you're under a lot of stress. Fine motor skills diminishing rapidly. You probably can't do it reliably. Now grab a 500 lumen M6. Do the same thing. That beam is so huge, you have an incredible margin of error where you point it at. Try that experiment in front of a mirror. It's very ummm, eye opening.

 

[Nyctophiliac]

I remember a few years ago I saw in the local spyshop something that I took to be a torch, I think it was even called 'ultimate flashlight' or similar.

On examination it was a kind of torch, its bulb was appx the size of a household bulb and filled with thin silver wire (Magnesium?) like an old flash bulb.

They claimed that if fired at an attacker at close range, even if they shut their eyes tightly, it would temporarily blind them for several minutes!!!!

That's quite impressive...

Runtime is a bit of an issue though!!!


I think they're illegal around here now (You know how the UK government believes in individuals defending themselves!!!!)




...Renew!...Renew!...Renew!.....

 

[xochi]

The blue tinted color of LED's is harsher.

On the other hand, I strobed a coworker with my Gladius and he kinda fell over and whined.

Perhaps your coworker is a nine year old girl? :laughing:

 

[LEDcandle]

If you're totally in the dark, the tight focus is to YOUR detriment. Are you going to be able to hit that pair of eyes exactly (remember you have very little sidespill) with that tight focus? Try hitting a five inch circle with a thin beam from 7 to 10 yards. Do it within one second or less. Remember, it's totally dark and you don't know with 100% certainty where that 5 inch circle is in front of you. Also, remember you're under a lot of stress. Fine motor skills diminishing rapidly. You probably can't do it reliably. Now grab a 500 lumen M6. Do the same thing. That beam is so huge, you have an incredible margin of error where you point it at. Try that experiment in front of a mirror. It's very ummm, eye opening.

Of course if I could get a high lumen AND high lux light, I would take that. If I had to choose between a Lux V flooder at 100 lumens or a KL3 at 30 lumens, I'd still take the KL3 for blinding purposes

The M6 rocks not only because its 500 lumens, it is using a turbohead, which collimates the 500 lumens to devastating effect. As in, it has high lux too, that's why its effective.

 

[Paladin]

I think using light for offensive purposes is highly over-rated. In many cases, "lighting someone up" with a painfully bright light is going to do more to inspire their animosity than calm them down.

The original concept involved TWO PARTS. A multi-cell Maglite is held near the bezel end, with the body pointing rearward over the LEO's right shoulder. The oft used authoritative phrase "Let me see your eyes" was accompanied (FIRST) by a blast of light, WHILE THE WRIST WAS SNAPPED and (SECOND)the flashlight body strikes their forehead. An experience best learned by watching.

Mid's 70's Northern Virginia local LEO's taught this method to several friends of mine as "character building lessons". What I learned was to never stand within an arms length of someone with a flashlight in their hand. And to say "Yes sir" politely.

Paladin

 

[Unicorn]

A bright light can disorient an attacker long enough to allow you to use a follow up technique more effectively. OC, strike, gunshot, run like hell, whatever. They wince, close their eyes, or shield them. If they are doing that, they can't hit you, shoot you, or stab you as easily. It also lets you surprise them with the OC, or the kick to the groin. By itself, it will just **** off the person after their eyes adjust.

But, and this is part of my eternal "lumens don't mean jack," tirade, LUMENS DON"T MEAN JACK! By itself they tell you nothing, just like by itself, candlepower doesn't tell you anything. 500 lumens from an SF M6 might be enough to cause pain and disorient an attacker. But that's because it's focused. Next time you are in a store that sells light bulbs, look at the lumens produce by the various wattages. Especially the higher powered ones. Anybody ever get totally and painfully blinded by a desk lamp? Maybe if you've been asleep and it's pitch black in the room.

 

[asdalton]

This light would mess up an attacker. :devil: :laughing: