How many lumens does it take to REALLY mess up an attacker?
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TonkinWarrior
Enlightened
asdalton said:
Nice find, Andrew!
Do they take PayPal?
A CP77 lamp messed me up and nearly made me loose my balance, not so nice, especially as i was looking in it from 0,5m distance and standing on a ladder 7m up over a stone floor 
CP77 is a theatre spotlight lamp at 1kw, rated at 25000 lumens i think
CP77 is a theatre spotlight lamp at 1kw, rated at 25000 lumens i think
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Glass
Newly Enlightened
I have had people go sideways when I accidently flashed them with my SL-20.
Personally, I don't buy the huge "disorientation" effect that a flashlight supposedly has. If anything, I think it could have the opposite effect because BG knows that if he charges at that bright light, you'll be behind it and he'll get to you.
Yes, when a normal person gets hit with 200+ lumens of light, they close their eyes and turn away. However, add drugs, alcohol, or anger to the mix and a person becomes far less sensitive to things like that.
Example: a month or two ago I had a guy who was drunk and POed absorb 7 (yes SEVEN) contact shots from the TASER without effect. He forced us to go old school on him before he stopped fighting. If someone wants to, they can fight through incredible levels of pain.
I do believe bright light can be used to mask an inbound strike, but I would not even hope that it alone would give me a chance to escape.
One more thing, Gabe Suarez has recently found, through numerous FOF tests, that the strobing lights have little or no advantage in an armed conflict. In fact, he and his associates have found that it can be a disadvantage for the operator.
http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=11858
Just food for thought.
Patrick
Personally, I don't buy the huge "disorientation" effect that a flashlight supposedly has. If anything, I think it could have the opposite effect because BG knows that if he charges at that bright light, you'll be behind it and he'll get to you.
Yes, when a normal person gets hit with 200+ lumens of light, they close their eyes and turn away. However, add drugs, alcohol, or anger to the mix and a person becomes far less sensitive to things like that.
Example: a month or two ago I had a guy who was drunk and POed absorb 7 (yes SEVEN) contact shots from the TASER without effect. He forced us to go old school on him before he stopped fighting. If someone wants to, they can fight through incredible levels of pain.
I do believe bright light can be used to mask an inbound strike, but I would not even hope that it alone would give me a chance to escape.
One more thing, Gabe Suarez has recently found, through numerous FOF tests, that the strobing lights have little or no advantage in an armed conflict. In fact, he and his associates have found that it can be a disadvantage for the operator.
http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=11858
Just food for thought.
Patrick
Patrick,
Granted the light might not affect some people and it would be necessary to go medieval on them, but some of us peace loving types with good eyes are stunned by candlelight...shine your light in an airline pilot's eyeball and he is out for a good while.
Last night while planting some asparagus roots in my garden after dark (don't ask) I dropped my Surefire and it landed in the dirt with the lens pointed up. I was seeing spots for about an hour.
My vision is 20/10, perfect for color, no eye defects at all.
Still I wouldn't trust a light for defense unless in a country where the light is all you're allowed to have. Witness all the blind bats with bad eyes who drive at night when they can't see where they're going...I don't think their behavior is affected by a light.
Richard
Granted the light might not affect some people and it would be necessary to go medieval on them, but some of us peace loving types with good eyes are stunned by candlelight...shine your light in an airline pilot's eyeball and he is out for a good while.
Last night while planting some asparagus roots in my garden after dark (don't ask) I dropped my Surefire and it landed in the dirt with the lens pointed up. I was seeing spots for about an hour.
My vision is 20/10, perfect for color, no eye defects at all.
Still I wouldn't trust a light for defense unless in a country where the light is all you're allowed to have. Witness all the blind bats with bad eyes who drive at night when they can't see where they're going...I don't think their behavior is affected by a light.
Richard
carrot
Flashaholic
Group buy, anyone?asdalton said:
Glass
Newly Enlightened
Richard,
I agree with you that a normal person's eyes are effected by a bright light, but normal/peace loving people don't go attacking strangers.
I would never think of harming someone just because I wanted what they had. However, take a meth user and he'll rob/assault his own mother (literally) to get his next fix.
Basically, though I have used blinding light to gain a tactical advantage over a suspect, I really hate all the marketing b/s that is trying to convince good people that a bright flashlight can keep them safe.
Yeah, there are those muggers that will be scared off by a blinding blast of bodacious light, but, there are plenty of predators that'll just get POed when you shine a light in their eyes. So, you'd better have a plan B through Z which includes killing the SOB if he pushes it to that. I don't just mean using guns, I mean killing him with your bare hands, if you must, because that is his plan for you.
I like flashlights a lot (probably waaay too much) but I don't believe for a second that they can protect me like good tactics/mindset and purpose designed weapons can.
Patrick
I agree with you that a normal person's eyes are effected by a bright light, but normal/peace loving people don't go attacking strangers.
I would never think of harming someone just because I wanted what they had. However, take a meth user and he'll rob/assault his own mother (literally) to get his next fix.
Basically, though I have used blinding light to gain a tactical advantage over a suspect, I really hate all the marketing b/s that is trying to convince good people that a bright flashlight can keep them safe.
Yeah, there are those muggers that will be scared off by a blinding blast of bodacious light, but, there are plenty of predators that'll just get POed when you shine a light in their eyes. So, you'd better have a plan B through Z which includes killing the SOB if he pushes it to that. I don't just mean using guns, I mean killing him with your bare hands, if you must, because that is his plan for you.
I like flashlights a lot (probably waaay too much) but I don't believe for a second that they can protect me like good tactics/mindset and purpose designed weapons can.
Patrick
kennyj
Enlightened
You have to remember, the real Bad Guys believe that they have an inalienable RIGHT to victimize you, and that you have no right to do anything to resist. Actually resisting is a mortal sin on your part, punishable by death at their discretion, and not necessarily a fast one. You need to be prepared for that possibility.
For blinding effect, you need either a very bright smooth, well-collimated, yet not-too-focused incandescent or a very bright LED weighted towards the blue end of the spectrum. Royal Blue luxeons are GREAT at blinding because of the human eye's difficulties with blue light (short version: your eyes really suck at dealing with blue. Chronic exposure to blue light has even been implicated in a number of vision problems, in fact.) Single-color LEDs also put out more light than their white counterparts thanks to the lack of phosphors.
For blinding effect, you need either a very bright smooth, well-collimated, yet not-too-focused incandescent or a very bright LED weighted towards the blue end of the spectrum. Royal Blue luxeons are GREAT at blinding because of the human eye's difficulties with blue light (short version: your eyes really suck at dealing with blue. Chronic exposure to blue light has even been implicated in a number of vision problems, in fact.) Single-color LEDs also put out more light than their white counterparts thanks to the lack of phosphors.
It's the element of surprize ! I have trained with low light tactics and can tell you at close quarter combat it's not just how bright the light is but how you use the light! You have to train with the light like anything else. "Shall how we train shall how we fight". 
lasercrazy
Flashlight Enthusiast
A mag85 would mess someone up pretty good.
Flakey
Enlightened
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2005
- Messages
- 425
again i have to vote for a mag100 in a 4d host. you give them 3000 lumens in the face and then swing immediately for the head with your flashlight/nightstick. even if the 3000 lumens do NOTHING (which i highly doubt) a firm smack on the head with a mag100 would probably be deadly ...... kinda scary
Manzerick
Flashlight Enthusiast
i know i always thinkof the "blindability" of a light. Even if never needed i was blinding myself witht he E1L today at work off of a mirror... just htinking of the shock someone would feel if blinded...
Now the Dominator would be a crazy....crazy light to "night blind" someone with... I can't even imagine
Now the Dominator would be a crazy....crazy light to "night blind" someone with... I can't even imagine
KevinL
Flashlight Enthusiast
I was actually thinking of someone else's 1KW tank spotlight. HIDs are a UV hazard without proper filtration installed, and stepping in front of a 1KW HID at close range would immediately cause horrific radiation burns.
Kinda like stepping in front of a few hundred watts of high performance wireless transmission systems WILL assuredly microwave you. (I do wireless at work, thankfully, NOT in this power class.. PHEW!!)
Kinda like stepping in front of a few hundred watts of high performance wireless transmission systems WILL assuredly microwave you. (I do wireless at work, thankfully, NOT in this power class.. PHEW!!)
Glass
Newly Enlightened
Again, I believe that a bright light can give a tactical advantage if used in conjuction with other tactics/weapons. But, a light alone, I don't care if it is a USL, is not a weapon or a "Force Option" as many marketing campaigns would have you believe.
The Beast, Thor, USL, etc. are still only devices that allow you to see in the absence of natural light. Can they cause someone to close their eyes if shined in the face? Yes, until they re-orient themselves and change their tactics exactly like every mammal is programmed to do.
"It hurt my eyes" is not a good enough argument for me to rely on a light as my main "force option." It is only a tool that allows me to better orient myself to the situation and apply whatever option I think will save my skinny a**.
Use the flashlight to ID your target and get midevil. Using a light in that capacity, will have far better results if you are trying to save your butt.
Patrick
The Beast, Thor, USL, etc. are still only devices that allow you to see in the absence of natural light. Can they cause someone to close their eyes if shined in the face? Yes, until they re-orient themselves and change their tactics exactly like every mammal is programmed to do.
"It hurt my eyes" is not a good enough argument for me to rely on a light as my main "force option." It is only a tool that allows me to better orient myself to the situation and apply whatever option I think will save my skinny a**.
Use the flashlight to ID your target and get midevil. Using a light in that capacity, will have far better results if you are trying to save your butt.
Patrick
To settle this thread once and for all, I fired up my 35,000,000CP HF HID and pinned my eyes open Clockwork Orange style, then placed myself in front of the beam for an hour. Simultaniously, I had a friend hit me in the head with a 6D mag swung like a baseball bat. I can confirm that I can't see anything, and I have a headache. :wow:
lightplay22
Enlightened
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2005
- Messages
- 328
Blindspot, LOL Now if someone else attacks you, you won't see him coming. Too funny!
How many swings before you became REALLY messed up?
How many swings before you became REALLY messed up?
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carrot
Flashaholic
How many lumens does a flamethrower put out? :devil:
Now that's a torch that'll really mess up an attacker.
Now that's a torch that'll really mess up an attacker.
the Streamlight BatonLite is build for self-defense flashlight
ONLY 42 LUMENS !!
http://www.donrearic.com/batonlite.html
your opinion ?
ONLY 42 LUMENS !!
http://www.donrearic.com/batonlite.html
your opinion ?
Glass
Newly Enlightened
I like it.
This is a purpose built weapon. However, you can use any sturdy cylindrical object and that includes a huge selection of flashlights. But, this one is a multitasker and I dig that.
Use the light to change his focus from you to the light (not "blind" him) and and almost simulataneously deliver several blows to the fragile facial bones. That is a tactically sound use of a flashlight that will work in the real world in a real fight for survival.
Patrick
[edited to add]
Also, Don Rearic is a wealth of knowledge on real world self defense. His site has a bunch of good info on it.
This is a purpose built weapon. However, you can use any sturdy cylindrical object and that includes a huge selection of flashlights. But, this one is a multitasker and I dig that.
Use the light to change his focus from you to the light (not "blind" him) and and almost simulataneously deliver several blows to the fragile facial bones. That is a tactically sound use of a flashlight that will work in the real world in a real fight for survival.
Patrick
[edited to add]
Also, Don Rearic is a wealth of knowledge on real world self defense. His site has a bunch of good info on it.
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kennyj
Enlightened
The Batonlite isn't 42 lumens. There is no direct translation between lumens and CD, MCD, or lux. It's actually somewhere in the vicinity of 7.4 lumens, extrapolating from the Overall Output test results on flashlightreviews.com. Roughly the same as an ARC AAA-P, in fact. It's a good "keychain" light, if large, with exceptionally good runtime. Could be considered an alternative to the minimag as well for many individuals, and has similar carry options. LEOs often value it as a ticket-writer light. For tactical purposes, looking at it purely from a lighting perspective, it's only useful for close-range threat assessment. Any other defensive value it has is as a kubotan.
The use of a light like the Streamlight Batonlite or the Streamlight Stylus as a kubotan can be effective, but it requires training. In any case, as with any other light, use of a flashlight as an impact weapon is something to be considered very carefully and trained for (among the considerations: do I really want to risk screwing up this expensive light when a much cheaper and less delicate instrument could do the job better? Also, if it gets damaged in a fight, at what point does it cease being useful?) I'd consider the Batonlite a rare exception to the rule in that it's designed with self-defense in mind and is damn near indestructible (moreso than most other tactical lights) but generally, flashlights are usable as impact weapons only as a last resort.
Another consideration is that you can use a flashlight *in conjunction with* an impact weapon or kubotan that will do a better job. Well-timed direct flashes to the face with something very bright in very dark conditions could help throw an attacker's aim or timing off, for example. You can easily dazzle yourself at the same time, but at least your finger is the one on the button (so you'll know when to blink.) You also get the option to dual-wield if you're going the impact device route (not an option most people would want to consider in most cases, but there are uses for such a tactic.)
If you really want to use any sort of pain-compliance device or impact weapon for self-defense, though, you're probably better off getting something lent better to the task. There are some really good kubota out there that will work FAR better than the Batonlight, and almost any real club or baton will fulfill the role better than a maglite for a number of reasons. There are even times when other common non-weapon objects can be used as weapons more effectively; for example, pens can make extremely effective kubotans and many can also be used as stabbing weapons if you're in a severe SHTF scenario. Anything with some mass (like a coin purse) can be adapted for use as a sap, or have cord attached in some way to be used as a mace. Strong cord can even be used as a garrote, and can be carried in simple and sensible ways (see the Chain Knot, or simply get a sturdy retractable lanyard and put keys on it.) DR's site has some interesting ideas, and there's a wealth of information on the subject out there.
The use of a light like the Streamlight Batonlite or the Streamlight Stylus as a kubotan can be effective, but it requires training. In any case, as with any other light, use of a flashlight as an impact weapon is something to be considered very carefully and trained for (among the considerations: do I really want to risk screwing up this expensive light when a much cheaper and less delicate instrument could do the job better? Also, if it gets damaged in a fight, at what point does it cease being useful?) I'd consider the Batonlite a rare exception to the rule in that it's designed with self-defense in mind and is damn near indestructible (moreso than most other tactical lights) but generally, flashlights are usable as impact weapons only as a last resort.
Another consideration is that you can use a flashlight *in conjunction with* an impact weapon or kubotan that will do a better job. Well-timed direct flashes to the face with something very bright in very dark conditions could help throw an attacker's aim or timing off, for example. You can easily dazzle yourself at the same time, but at least your finger is the one on the button (so you'll know when to blink.) You also get the option to dual-wield if you're going the impact device route (not an option most people would want to consider in most cases, but there are uses for such a tactic.)
If you really want to use any sort of pain-compliance device or impact weapon for self-defense, though, you're probably better off getting something lent better to the task. There are some really good kubota out there that will work FAR better than the Batonlight, and almost any real club or baton will fulfill the role better than a maglite for a number of reasons. There are even times when other common non-weapon objects can be used as weapons more effectively; for example, pens can make extremely effective kubotans and many can also be used as stabbing weapons if you're in a severe SHTF scenario. Anything with some mass (like a coin purse) can be adapted for use as a sap, or have cord attached in some way to be used as a mace. Strong cord can even be used as a garrote, and can be carried in simple and sensible ways (see the Chain Knot, or simply get a sturdy retractable lanyard and put keys on it.) DR's site has some interesting ideas, and there's a wealth of information on the subject out there.
