Is this a tattoo era?

o0o

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IMO... Its one thing not to like them (they're not my cup of tea at all), but its another to judge someone with one before getting to know the person.

Its a free country, and I'm thankful that people have the right to do what they want to do with their bodies.
 

Dave Keith

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Hi Greta,
It looks like the person with the amazing tattoo of the Cathartes aura had the foresight to have it placed in a low-sag area. :grin2:

The Turkey Buzzard, as we call it here in TX, is actually a Turkey Vulture and is a great clean up crew. Without them, we would be up to our hip pockets in road kill. I have great admiration for any creature that can clean up a dead skunk and wish for more!:crackup:

best wishes from the Lone Star State :wave:
 

js

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You know, maybe it's a generational thing, but some of the comments made so far are just blatant stereotyping, and superficial stereotyping at that.

If you are close enough to see someone's tattoo, then you are close enough to see much better indicators as to what type of person they are than a knee-jerk sweeping generalization such as "what type of people wear tattoos." I understand why someone might chose not to get a tattoo based on the fear of being stereotyped, and the fear of hurting their first-impressions, but to turn that around and decide to stereotype people just based on the fact that they have tattoos is far harder for me to understand. And that act of stereotyping says more about the person without the tattoo--the person judging--than it says about the person with the tattoo.

And this brings up the topic: yes this probably is a "tattoo era" in the sense that Don mentioned: that it's more and more acceptable to get tattoos, and more and more people are getting them, across all the demographics. I don't know why exactly, but the older generations seem to be OK with superficial stereotyping. It was just a convention or something. If you had long unkempt hair, you were obviously a degenerate. If you didn't wear a suit and tie to church, you were obviously an undesirable, and etc., etc.

The most poignant example of this involves my own mother. One of my best friends growing up decided while he was in college that he wanted to do the whole "goth" thing. He dyed his hair black and wore eye liner and a studded leather wrist strap and wore all black and started listening to goth music, and all that. Now, before he did this, my mother loved Matt and would always comment on how polite he was and how nice his parents were. He was an honors student in High School, and my mother was actually his French teacher at one point. He was never a trouble maker and was indeed as upstanding and moral as my mom thought him to be.

Then, one day, he shows up at my house and he's a goth. His behavior is pretty much exactly the same. He's still as polite as ever and considerate as ever. Matt and I do the same things as before. All that has changed, as far as I can see, is his appearance and his taste in music. And my mom wasn't listening to music with us or anything, so she wouldn't even know that.

But, from that point onward, Matt was persona non gratis and was a "bad influence" and my mom was clearly uncomfortable that I would decide to hang out with anyone who looked like he did.

And this was a person (and his parents) whom she had known for years, not a stranger who just walked in off the street.

Didn't matter.

Surface totally over-ruled everything else. Stereotyping wasn't something to ferret out and eradicate in this case, but an effing PROOF all by itself.

Shameful and disgraceful, really.

It must be a generational thing, I guess. Too bad, really, to close yourself off in this way; to lose vision in this nearsighted way. If all you focus on is the surface like this, the depths won't be seen, as they will all be out of focus.

Ah well, to each his or her own.
 

LowBat

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Shameful and disgraceful, really.

It must be a generational thing, I guess. Too bad, really, to close yourself off in this way; to lose vision in this nearsighted way. If all you focus on is the surface like this, the depths won't be seen, as they will all be out of focus.

Ah well, to each his or her own.
Don't forget the freedom to mark one's body is no different than the freedom to form one's own opinion. I realized I was a little rude in expressing my opinion of tattoos in a prior post and apologized for doing so. I think the scale is now tipping the other way.
 

js

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LowBat,

My last sentence "Ah well, to each his or her own" was a specific recognition of "the freedom to form one's own opinion". So, I didn't forget!

However, as with anything else, the opinions that you form, and why you formed them are also open to being the subject of others' opinions.

To clarify, though, I was trying to criticize a certain class of actions that I see as stereotyping. I didn't mean to say that anyone who made a judgmental post on people with tattoos was a jerk. I just think it's a lousy thing to do, stereotype and pre-judge.

But, all of us do lousy things from time to time, and none of us agrees exactly as to what is and isn't "lousy".

That's one of the reasons to talk about stuff. (Or post about it).

Just my two cents. YMMV. Or rather, YMMAPWV.
 

jtr1962

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You know, maybe it's a generational thing, but some of the comments made so far are just blatant stereotyping, and superficial stereotyping at that.

If you are close enough to see someone's tattoo, then you are close enough to see much better indicators as to what type of person they are than a knee-jerk sweeping generalization such as "what type of people wear tattoos." I understand why someone might chose not to get a tattoo based on the fear of being stereotyped, and the fear of hurting their first-impressions, but to turn that around and decide to stereotype people just based on the fact that they have tattoos is far harder for me to understand. And that act of stereotyping says more about the person without the tattoo--the person judging--than it says about the person with the tattoo.

And this brings up the topic: yes this probably is a "tattoo era" in the sense that Don mentioned: that it's more and more acceptable to get tattoos, and more and more people are getting them, across all the demographics. I don't know why exactly, but the older generations seem to be OK with superficial stereotyping. It was just a convention or something. If you had long unkempt hair, you were obviously a degenerate. If you didn't wear a suit and tie to church, you were obviously an undesirable, and etc., etc.

The most poignant example of this involves my own mother. One of my best friends growing up decided while he was in college that he wanted to do the whole "goth" thing. He dyed his hair black and wore eye liner and a studded leather wrist strap and wore all black and started listening to goth music, and all that. Now, before he did this, my mother loved Matt and would always comment on how polite he was and how nice his parents were. He was an honors student in High School, and my mother was actually his French teacher at one point. He was never a trouble maker and was indeed as upstanding and moral as my mom thought him to be.

Then, one day, he shows up at my house and he's a goth. His behavior is pretty much exactly the same. He's still as polite as ever and considerate as ever. Matt and I do the same things as before. All that has changed, as far as I can see, is his appearance and his taste in music. And my mom wasn't listening to music with us or anything, so she wouldn't even know that.

But, from that point onward, Matt was persona non gratis and was a "bad influence" and my mom was clearly uncomfortable that I would decide to hang out with anyone who looked like he did.

And this was a person (and his parents) whom she had known for years, not a stranger who just walked in off the street.

Didn't matter.

Surface totally over-ruled everything else. Stereotyping wasn't something to ferret out and eradicate in this case, but an effing PROOF all by itself.

Shameful and disgraceful, really.

It must be a generational thing, I guess. Too bad, really, to close yourself off in this way; to lose vision in this nearsighted way. If all you focus on is the surface like this, the depths won't be seen, as they will all be out of focus.

Ah well, to each his or her own.
This is really, really interesting as I could think of about a dozen responses here. Besides the million-dollar question of what exactly prompted your friend to change his appearance so radically there are lots of angles to this. Yes, I think you're right-stereotyping as your mom did based on appearance is silly. However, on another level it's also quite understandable. What exactly is stereotyping? It's categorizing, compartmentizing. Animals do it all the time. If something that looks a certain way harms them, in the future all things which look similar are taken as harmful and avoided. Of course, this behavoir can be gradually unlearned as anyone who has gained a stray animal's trust knows. It's no different with humans. I know you like to think humans are special, different, whatever, but in the end we're just another animal. A very unique one to be sure, but still one capable of the same survival traits as any other animal. And that's what stereotyping really is at its core-a quick way of determining if something is good or bad, and reacting accordingly. The problem with stereotyping is that it's simply a black or white method of categorizing. As such, it can't account for the shades of grey present in modern civilization. Like other survival traits, it can sometimes cause problems in modern society, yet other times can literally save our lives by allowing a quick judgement and action to avoid real or perceived danger. As such, it's neither good nor bad, but rather something which just is. Maybe you mom didn't react to Matt's appearance but rather to his change in appearance. Remember that this is something all animals are hardwired to react to as sudden changes in appearance of fellow animals can signal dangers such as disease, making the sick animal one to be avoided. Perhaps in time we'll evolve so that our brains are no longer hardwired to react in such a manner, but be aware that such behavoir still sometimes serves a useful purpose, even if it at times also offends.

Now you mentioned that stereotyping a person because they have tattoos is hard for you to understand. Am I the only one here who sees the irony in that? Granted, on its face stereotyping is a superficial, simplistic way of looking at things. But let's look at tattoos, or for that matter any number of other things people do to their bodies to change them in such a way to reflect "their individuality". Isn't that equally superficial? I agree it's important to see the person inside rather than just the outer shell. But to me anyway radically changing your body seems to convey to me that this is a person more concerned with outward appearances than with matters of the soul. And yet many such people will be the first to complain that they're being stereotyped based on their outward appearance. For example, if I see a woman with breast implants I see someone who can't fathom that there actually exist men who might like small-breasted, or even heaven forbid flat-chested, females. Ditto for guys getting penile enlargements. And now tattoos, body piercings, etc. are becoming mainstream? Am I the only one here who thinks maybe we're actually taking a step backwards evolution-wise here?

What happened? No certain answer but I'd say as we've become more and more materialistic in the last two decades this way of life has carried over into how we treat our bodies. Yes, our bodies have become just another thing to bling up like our homes and our cars and our children. It started with clothing and has gone on to tattoos and body piercings. We say all this is to show the world our "individuality". I say why bother? Those close to you will already know your individuality without in your face expressions of it. Those not close to you likely won't care. All these expressions of individuality do is to meld together into a cacophony of mass confusion. It's akin to trying to appreciate 10,000 paintings simultaneously, or listen to 10,000 scores of music simultaneously. Our brains just aren't wired for it, there isn't enough time to look at each person and try to figure out the message they're trying to get out. So instead of seeing individuality guess what we do instead? Yes, we try to compartalize, categorize some of the confusion around us to make sense of it. I doubt any studies exist but it wouldn't entirely surprise me if there is more stereotyping nowadays than 50 years ago. Why would that be? It's because there are simply more sharply defined categories of people to categorize than there were 50 years ago.

While I can only speak for myself I suspect those who might stereotype tattoos in general don't care for any blatant outward expressions of individuality. I know I don't. They just make me highly uncomfortable for lack of a better way of putting it. I don't care to immediately know a complete stranger's past loves, or hobbies, or sexual preference, or favorite music/movie/car, or anything else. I'd prefer to be around people who don't dress special or adorn themselves in any way much beyond basic good grooming. That makes the person a total mystery to me unless I decide to try to know them better, like a closed book instead of an open one. Even then, they have the option of only revealing as much to me as they want. And that's how I think it should be for all of us. We should each have parts of us known only to ourselves and never shared with the outside world. I've been told even by those who know me a really long time that they still haven't a clue what makes me tick. I take it as a complement. And I think it's in large part because I reveal little about my inner self by my outward appearance.

Should we all revel in our individuality? Absolutely! Even animals do so. Do we need to use all sorts of outward devices to show complete strangers that we're special? I don't think so. I honestly think we're diminished by doing so. We long ago evolved past the point where outside displays are the only way of communicating who we are. Or paraphrasing you a bit-how can you see the depths if what is on the surface drowns them out?
 

LowBat

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JS,

Fair enough. I just though we had to be a little more mindful of what could be seen as indirect criticism here on CPF. Perhaps I'm being too cautious.

Maybe it would have been better if the discussion was on how a tattoo affects a first impression, rather than assume it's a significant factor in judging someone's character.
 

Greta

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The Turkey Buzzard, as we call it here in TX, is actually a Turkey Vulture and is a great clean up crew. Without them, we would be up to our hip pockets in road kill. I have great admiration for any creature that can clean up a dead skunk and wish for more!:crackup:

Funny you should mention that... :grin2: I mentioned earlier that my tats are my "life map"... My Angel/Vulture represents the time I spent working as a death investigator for the Medical Examiner... ;)

For example, if I see a woman with breast implants I see someone who can't fathom that there actually exist men who might like small-breasted, or even heaven forbid flat-chested, females.

Ok now THIS is funny!! :crackup: What makes you think that women who get breast implants are doing it for some GUY? Please don't flatter yourselves, gentlemen... :rolleyes: Most women that I know who have had such surgery did it 100% for themselves so they could feel better about themselves, wear nicer clothes, undo the effects of gravity & stretchmarks after having children, corrective surgery after more radical surgery such as a mastectomy, etc. Not one of them did it for a man or men... trust me!! :laughing: ... and sorry guys... it ain't always all about you... :nana:
 

Monocrom

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What makes you think that women who get breast implants are doing it for some GUY? Please don't flatter yourselves, gentlemen... :rolleyes: Most women that I know who have had such surgery did it 100% for themselves so they could feel better about themselves, wear nicer clothes, undo the effects of gravity & stretchmarks after having children, corrective surgery after more radical surgery such as a mastectomy, etc. Not one of them did it for a man or men... trust me!! :laughing: ... and sorry guys... it ain't always all about you... :nana:

We know they don't do it for us. We know...

But that doesn't mean we don't like to pretend it's for us. Just like when a guy goes to a gentleman's club. He pretends that the interest all the ladies are showing him are genuine. We know better. We just don't care. :D
 

jch79

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What a crazy thread...

I didn't know that tattoo's get under other people's skin so much (pun... yikes). :D
 

paxxus

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Ok now THIS is funny!! :crackup: What makes you think that women who get breast implants are doing it for some GUY? Please don't flatter yourselves, gentlemen... :rolleyes: Most women that I know who have had such surgery did it 100% for themselves so they could feel better about themselves, wear nicer clothes, undo the effects of gravity & stretchmarks after having children, corrective surgery after more radical surgery such as a mastectomy, etc. Not one of them did it for a man or men... trust me!! :laughing: ... and sorry guys... it ain't always all about you... :nana:
I'm pretty sure I once read in an article about human evolution and what happened when we started to walk around on two legs, that human breasts *also* serve as signals of health. This is why human females have such large breasts (even when not supporting babies, quite unusual really) compared to other animals of similar size, where such a display would be mostly concealed (because they walk on four) - a very large percentage of a human breast is simply nothing but fat and thus serve no functional purpose other than, shall we say, decoration. So whether you like it or not, to a large degree they *are* for the guys, and thank god for that :D - whether or not a woman is consciously aware of this while "optimizing" her attributes is irrelevant.

jtr1962, your post was very thoughtful, I enjoyed it a lot.

OK, so my "loser" statement was perhaps a little close-minded, sorry if someone felt offended. If anyone think they aren't judgmental about anything they are simply deluding themselves, you can't go around evaluating familiar patterns from scratch each and every time, you'd get nowhere. Each of us have our little thing, some don't like tattoos and others make sweeping statements about bearded men. To each his/her own ;)
 

RA40

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Our society conformity is also summed up during late night commercials. Weight loss, pills for magical health benefits, making things "bigger"...seems to be quite similar even on other continets as you can view similar commercials.

I also saw that series on the human development. Very interesting primal programming contained in each of us. Technology allows for people to "adapt" more easily...very similar to the whole make-up thing also covered in the youthful attraction game. I wish I could remember what that series is called. ?
 

StarHalo

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Scar1.jpg


Scar2.jpg


Scar3.jpg
 

saabgoblin

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Most women that I know who have had such surgery did it 100% for themselves so they could feel better about themselves, wear nicer clothes, undo the effects of gravity & stretchmarks after having children, corrective surgery after more radical surgery such as a mastectomy, etc. Not one of them did it for a man or men... trust me!! :laughing: ... and sorry guys... it ain't always all about you... :nana:
I understand the desire and or need from a medical perspective but from what I understand, they have to sever the nerves that connect to the areola and nipple and personally, I wouldn't want to loose that sensation on my own body:(. Surgery scares the patoot out of me and the idea of a squishy bag of fluid inside of my body makes me just a little squeamish.:green:

Personally I believe that au natural is the most aesthetically pleasing but should it help ones self confidence and esteem then so be it after all, it is someone elses body and not my own. I may be confusing the monster truck implants for those that may fly under the radar and are a little more understated. Sadly, we do live in an all too image concious world that seems to be an extension of high school beauty queens and kings and I have heard of studies that show that humans are attracted to perfect mirror image balance in the human form and certain characteristics and body traits lead to success in aquiring a mate.

Basically, I just love women!

We know they don't do it for us. We know...

But that doesn't mean we don't like to pretend it's for us. Just like when a guy goes to a gentleman's club. He pretends that the interest all the ladies are showing him are genuine. We know better. We just don't care. :D
:drunk:No tie required I take it!

I have come close on many occasions, especially the passing of my wife, to go under the needle but after giving it some time, I personally have realized that the strong convictions that I held yesterday may not have the same bearing as they do for me today. Basically I am too commit phobic but there are some beautiful ones out there.

Living in San Francisco and frequenting California's nude beaches, I have seen some sights, one in particular was a part of a man's body that had so many studs in it that it looked more like a studded and jeweled 1920's Flapper Girls coin purse.:eeew:

Well, some say potato, some say patatoe, diff strokes for diff folks, well it's all in the human smorgisboard to me!

Is that Bamboo work scarification or a tatoo???
 

js

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jtr,

I am once again amazed at how radically different our understands of the world are!

For starters, while evolutionary and survival considerations may provide insight into where certain behaviors came from, they in no way touch the moral issues involved. In this particular instance, I don't see the value in that angle because I do not believe that stereotyping, in the sense here considered, is "hardwired" into us. What one society stereotypes as good can be exactly what another stereotypes as bad. However, I don't want to dwell on this topic, and will concede that perhaps this sort of stereotyping is a survival trait in the sense of tribal or ingroup loyalty, where whatever is different from the group is likely to be seen as bad. Let's admit that.

Even so, that would have implications for a first impression, not for a conceptual thought structure and considered stances! For example, OK, my mom sees Matt and has a WTF reaction. Totally understandable. She's an animal, subject to flight or fight and such-like responses. Granted. But, after some time, after seeing first-hand that Matt is still a polite, considerate, and upstanding boy, this would fade away to be over-ridden with what culture has written on her soul.

But this is exactly where the stereotyping comes in, and not in the first impression. We're not talking a tiger or a badly mishappen, horrific human figure here. We're talking black hair, eyeliner, and black clothes. Big freaking deal. Not the sort of thing that would trigger a "hardwired" response.

No, the issue was not with evolution at all, not with my mom's "animal" nature, but rather with her prejudices and cultural notions as to what is "good / acceptable" and what is not. So the evolution argument is not only irrelevant here, it is actually misleading.

What I'm more interested in addressing, however, is your assertion that tattoos are just as superficial (if not more so) as stereotyping, and your feeling that it's ironic for me to have a problem with stereotyping but not with tattoos, as if the two were logically tied together.

The fact that you think they are linked together in this way is completely a function of your own personal ethos regarding appearance and expression of individuality, which I will address below. First, however, let's consider two different actions that you have lumped together as "stereotyping":

1. You see a specific person with a specific tattoo and that weighs significantly in your first impression of the person. Something about the tattoo and where it is on his or her body speaks to you. Maybe you get a bad "vibe" from it. Maybe you get a good one. But, either way, you have made a connection between the "surface" and the "depths", between the tattoo and what the wearers personality is. This I do NOT consider to be "stereotyping". This is better considered as intuition or a "first impression", to my mind.

2. You have a general feeling and ethic that anyone with any tattoo is more likely to be an undesirable than someone without. Now THIS is stereotyping. This is a prejudice. Literally something active before there is anything to actually judge upon. The classic example is racism.

And THIS is what I have been railing against, and not the first. See, because, I totally disagree that modern society in any way necessitates more of the second type of stereotyping. Quite the opposite, actually.

Now, is it "superficial" to get a tattoo? Or to get plastic surgery or implants or get your hair dyed?

Once again, a sweeping, stereotyping judgment is being made here (by you) regarding a WHOLE CLASS of behaviors. To say that everyone who gets a tattoo is superficial, to some degree, is totally unjustifiable. To be sure, some people who get a tattoo, or breast implants, may be in that category. But just as surely, some people are not. You only hold with this because you yourself are too caught up in your own value judgment on appearance and individuality.

There is a difference between what is on the surface, and what is "superficial". There's actually a word for what is on the surface: "surficial", and it has a different connotation than "superficial". As we are talking about it here, "superficial" means "apparent rather than actual or substantial" and "trivial; insignificant". If you get a tattoo because Megan Fox has a tattoo, and you get a design that has no meaning for you, then this is a superficial act. It does not proceed from the core of who you are.

The surface should complement the depths.

It's entirely possible to get a tattoo that profoundly expresses the core of who you are. This is the exact opposite of superficiality.

Who are you to decree that expressing ones personality and core being in a way that is visible on the surface is "superficial"? That's just bull, jtr. So you like to hide yourself away and keep yourself hidden, even from those who are closest to you. Big-whoop-de-freaking-do. I mean, you are obviously free to do so! And more power to you! I have no problem with it. But it doesn't mean that those of us who decide on a different approach to life are superficial or crass.

And note that in any case, outward appearance has a great deal to do with soul. You studiously avoid tattoos and unusual clothing or hair-styles or adornment precisely because this accords with your inward being and your notions of what is best.

Others pay the same attention to their outward appearance by getting tattoos and dressing unusually and wearing jewelry for the same reason: because it accords with their inner being and their notions of what the relations of these things should be.

You don't know why someone gets a tattoo or wears goth clothing. You assume it's because they want to show that they are "special" and "individual", and to "complete strangers" at that. But it's only a generalization, another stereotyping--one which has nothing to do with what is hardwired into your brain. It's simply a lack of imagination on your part, jtr.

Consider Greta. From what I know about her, I can pretty much guarantee you that she did not get her tattoos to impress complete strangers and try to prove to them that she is "special". Trust me when I tell you that she has got way better things to do with her time than that.

You asked me "-how can you see the depths if what is on the surface drowns them out?" The answer is simple: don't drown them out. Let the surface complement the depths. Perhaps this means revealing the depths. Perhaps this means concealing them. Perhaps it means accenting some, and softening others, in an artful way. Who knows. It would be different for each person.

But to suggest that the only authentic thing to do is to avoid expressing anything important on the surface is outrageous.

You, like my mother in the example I mentioned, suffer from a lack of vision here, a lack of imagination on this point. You can't really see this clearly because you judge it only from your own vantage point. And that's ironic, really, considering your attempt to broaden the discussion by bringing in a radically different vantage point (evolution). Try starting with a thought experiment a lot closer to home. Try to imagine that there are people who get tattoos and hair styles and unusual cloths, who have reasons for doing so that are just as profound and integral to them as the reasons why you do NOT do these things.
 
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