Japanese Vs Chinese Eneloop Cycle Testing Results

Power Me Up

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First off, thank you for posting these test results. I wasn't even aware that Chinese-made Eneloops even existed until I found this post today. These results have me worried about the future availability of high-quality LSD NiMH cells.

No problem - it's good to hear that you (and others) appreciate the work put into this test! :)

Doesn't this support the theory that these Chinese Eneloops might be a previously-produced model of LSD cell that has been rebranded with an Eneloop label?

Quite possibly - I wouldn't consider it conclusive evidence though...

It might be worth running a similar test on some Evoltas at some point in the future...
 

RoGuE_StreaK

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I am reminded of the Duraloops episode ~4 years ago, when the white-top Duraloops (Japan mfg.) were phased out by the black-top Duraloops (China mfg.)
Difference here being there's no such differentiation; they are, in essence, passing off inferior product as the exact same one as previously sold, right down to the same code number. So if not for the likes of Power Me Up realising what was happening, running tests, and informing others, we'd be buying what we thought were the much-touted famous Eneloop, for $50 for an 8 pack (regular price here), even if we went to the lengths of cross-checking the product code. Tantamount to a bait'n'switch.

Power Me Up, have DSE been listing those specials on their ebay store? I've got a search permanently set up to alert me of such things and nothing's come up. I'd probably pay $15 for an 8 pack of the Chinese ones for generic use, puts 'em in line with other cheaper LSDs, but I'd want the Japanese ones for "real" use.
 

Power Me Up

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Power Me Up, have DSE been listing those specials on their ebay store? I've got a search permanently set up to alert me of such things and nothing's come up. I'd probably pay $15 for an 8 pack of the Chinese ones for generic use, puts 'em in line with other cheaper LSDs, but I'd want the Japanese ones for "real" use.

I haven't been following their Ebay store, but checking the purchase history on the AAA Chocolat Eneloops, they have sold them in the past for $15 there:
http://offer.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISA...tem=251616832368&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2564

They had the AAA packs for sale on their web site yesterday for $15 ($2 shipping) but that has finished now. They've got the AA packs listed for $15 on their Ebay store right now - $5 shipping though. Checking their web site, the AA packs are coming up as $50 in the search results, but when you click on it, the price is $15. Better to order through their web site since shipping is $2 at the moment.

You need to be careful when purchasing Eneloops now - the Eneloop tropicals used to be Japanese 3rd Gen cells, but there are reports that DSE are now supplying Chinese made tropicals even though the web site still shows a photo of the Japanese version and the description says that they're made in Japan. In this case, product code is different (they've got both the Japanese and Chinese codes listed on their web site at the moment), so it should be possible to work out which version you're ordering, but I wouldn't trust them to send you the correct version - I've purchased an item from DSE previously and they substituted it with a different model without warning - same product name, but the product was actually different and had a different product code. If you were to purchase a pack of the tropicals and got the Chinese made version, I think that you would have very good grounds to complain!

Edit: If you want to keep an eye on Eneloop pricing, it's best to keep an eye on OzBargain - they're listed there every time they go on discount!
 

Mr Floppy

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You need to be careful when purchasing Eneloops now - the Eneloop tropicals used to be Japanese 3rd Gen cells, but there are reports that DSE are now supplying Chinese made tropicals even though the web site still shows a photo of the Japanese version and the description says that they're made in Japan

Confirmed. The packaging also mentions 65% where as the Japanese made ones say 70%.
 

MidnightDistortions

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It could be as simple as they think that since the Eneloop brand is fairly well recognised (at least compared to EVoltas) that using that brand will help them to sell more. Personally, I think that it's a very shorted sighted move and they could end up killing the Eneloop brand reputation quicker than it was originally built up...

"Normal" price for a pack of 4 Eneloops tends to be around AU$25 which is only a bit more than Energizer and Duracell rechargeables are often sold for here. Energizer and Duracells rechargeables rarely go on sale though whereas (Chinese) Eneloops are regularly going for $15 per 8 pack on special.

Yeah someone that has expected Eneloops to last a certain time may notice a difference in quality (especially if they take note on when their first set of Eneloops decline) and it will kill the reputation that Eneloops are far better. I think Panasonic might also want to offer a lower price for Eneloops to gain some acceptance of rechargeables, even though they are not as good as Japanese Eneloops they may be in competition with Duracell and Energizer. In comparison the only difference is that Eneloops is lower mAh capacity compared to Duracell and Energizer (though they have a 1,400mAh battery).
 

kreisl

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I don't want to be shy myself ;) so lemme join your thread mark and say thanks so much for your serious testing efforts of cycling Eneloops hundreds of times. My iCharger can run CYCLE programs with up to 999 cycles, which is insane and awesome at the same time. What's the max number of cycles which the USC UltraSmartCharger supports?

In the current MC3000 firmware this number is limited to N=10, a nice realistic reasonable practical number. As long as users don't express their case why they would want or need over 10 cycles in a charger-analyzer, the ten would stay that way i guess.

And sorry for the ot :p
 

tripplec

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I checked a AAA I have and the latest black 2450mA Eneloops and they both say Made in Japan. I got the high capacity last year on eBay. I haven't check through the AA though at this time and it would be a bummer if they were made in China with short life characteristic.

So based on the quality of currently available eneloop cells in North America.

What is one to do?
Find a quality alternative? Who?

I believe that part of the discussion has not initiated for future addition and/or replacement cells.
 

tripplec

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It's speculated that when Panasonic purchased Sanyo, they only acquired the Eneloop brand and the Japanese factory that produces Eneloops was sold off to a third party to ensure that there weren't any anti-trust issues....

I overlooked this point in the 1st post. If in fact these Chinese eneloops are built on different patents and technology. They they are nothing more than a clone best effort within. This point would make me look for an alternative brand as good as the original Japanese Eneloop cell were. Cells used to mention the patents protecting them printed on the jacket. I wonder if that is still the case to compare new to old production.

This is bad if correct very bad and the tests implies clearly that something is off, a lot off.
 

Mr Floppy

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My iCharger can run CYCLE programs with up to 999 cycles, which is insane and awesome at the same time. What's the max number of cycles which the USC UltraSmartCharger supports?

Being the firmware developer, he has his own firmware so he can set it to anything he likes. You can can too if you want to mod the firmware. I'm hoping for a version that will listen and take commands over serial. That way, you should be able to set any sort of program you like.

And sorry for the ot

The testing method is important. It isn't just about cycles as special things happen on certain cycles.
 

blankc72

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Last week I bought an 8 pack of 4th generation AA Eneloops from Amazon and they are Japanese. Hopefully Panasonic does not phase out the Japanese eneloops completely but won't be surprised if it happens.


Sent from my iPhone using Candlepowerforums
 

SimulatedZero

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Well, my understanding is that Panasonic did not aquire a Japanese based factory with the Eneloop purchase. I'm not sure how they could continue to supply Japanese made cells with out outsourcing them to the company that's owns the factory and bringing the subsequent markup that would follow. It just depends on whether the Made in Japan stamp is popular enough to sustain it's own branding price.

On the other hand, how does this effect the Eneloop high capacity cells? I'm sure their probably made in the same factory, but being that they are not true LSD cells, I'm hoping they are made in another nifty factory and will still be made in Japan? :D

It would be a real shame if they suffered from the same performance drop and IR increase
 
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Rosoku Chikara

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...It's speculated that when Panasonic purchased Sanyo, they only acquired the Eneloop brand and the Japanese factory that produces Eneloops was sold off to a third party to ensure that there weren't any anti-trust issues...<snip>

I would say that the greater part of this statement is not speculation. It is based on credible newspaper articles which pointed out the significant anti-trust issues that prevented Panasonic from "cornering the market" on Ni-MH cells. (The market has changed significantly since then, so I doubt they would have such a huge share any more.)

Actually, the "Eneloop" technology has a rather "complex pedigree." Toshiba originally owned the research center and production facility in Takasaki City, but it was later sold to Sanyo. (It is not clear just how much of the "break-through" technology originally came from Toshiba, and how much was subsequently developed by Sanyo.) Then, at the time of the Sanyo/Panasonic "merger" this particular battery production facility was sold to Fujitsu and the resulting company renamed "FDK TWICELL Co.,LTD." (To my understanding, Panasonic never actually owned this plant.)

So everything above is relatively clear, and easily determined by examining records of corporate filings. What we don't know is just what kind of agreement FDK reached with Panasonic, where Panasonic is obviously marketing the Eneloop cells that were once manufactured by Sanyo. FDK is extremely close-mouthed about this. Despite some public statements being made by distributors selling the Fujitsu brand cells manufactured by FDK (to the effect that the Fujitsu cells are "the same as Eneloops" and "made in the same plant"); FDK has consistently refused to make any public statements about whether or not they currently manufacturer Eneloop cells, and whether or not their Fujitsu cells are "the same as Eneloops." (It seems fairly obvious that they are bound by a rather stringent non-disclosure agreement.)

Based on information published on the Japanese internet (showing that tiny --almost microscopic-- imperfections that can be found on both the Fujitsu cells and Eneloop cells, indicate that they are being manufactured on the same production line), and based on HJK's comparison testing; it seems clear to me that FDK is the only source of the Japanese made Eneloop cells that are currently being sold in Japan.

However, it is still very unclear me as to whether or not Panasonic may actually "own" the technology (or have full rights to it, based on some kind of licensing agreement). If they have rights to the technology, and are not prohibited from doing so, they could at anytime establish their own Eneloop manufacturing plant in Japan. So, depending on their rights (which would likely be exceedingly difficult to ascertain), being made in Japan may not necessarily be proof that you are getting "The real McCoy" or cells that are identical to the original (or later generations of) Sanyo Eneloop cells.

More troubling is the fact that, whether or not they own rights to the technology, Panasonic clearly owns the Eneloop name. So, Panasonic is free to change specifications and production methods as they wish, and still call the final product an "Eneloop."

Those of us who want the best, and appreciate the difference, owe Power Me Up a debt of gratitude for his extensive testing of Eneloop cells, since his efforts seem to demonstrate rather clearly that we should steer clear of Chinese made Eneloops, if possible.
 
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Lynx_Arc

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I will have to agree that the chinese eneloops appear to be akin to rayovac hybrids. I have some of them and they come out about 1000mah higher in capacity than the duraloops (japenese) that I have and are a lot more fragile if you overdischarge them in series it almost always significantly reduces their capacity. If I need more LSD cells I will probably stick with buying japanese duraloops here.
 

Power Me Up

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I don't want to be shy myself ;) so lemme join your thread mark and say thanks so much for your serious testing efforts of cycling Eneloops hundreds of times. My iCharger can run CYCLE programs with up to 999 cycles, which is insane and awesome at the same time. What's the max number of cycles which the USC UltraSmartCharger supports?

I've currently got it set to limit the number of cycles to 100 which I think is plenty. I could very easily change it to allow up to about 125 but I kept it at 100 as a nice round number. With a few more changes, I could allow it to go up to literally a billion cycles but I think we can agree that it would be slightly overboard to allow that many! ;-)

In the current MC3000 firmware this number is limited to N=10, a nice realistic reasonable practical number. As long as users don't express their case why they would want or need over 10 cycles in a charger-analyzer, the ten would stay that way i guess.

IMHO, 10 is a bit low. If I didn't have the USC and I was looking at purchasing the MC3000, I'd be asking for it to allow up to 100 as well (or at least 50) so that it could also do similar cycle testing without having to be babied all of the time.
 

Power Me Up

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I checked a AAA I have and the latest black 2450mA Eneloops and they both say Made in Japan. I got the high capacity last year on eBay. I haven't check through the AA though at this time and it would be a bummer if they were made in China with short life characteristic.

As far as I'm aware (things can always change!) the high capacity Eneloops are only being made in Japan and I haven't heard anything to indicate that their production will be being moved to China.

Depending on your needs and usage, you may need to keep in mind that the high capacity Eneloops may not last as many cycles as you would expect:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?391756-Eneloop-XX-Vs-Turnigy-2400-Cycle-Testing
 

Power Me Up

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I overlooked this point in the 1st post. If in fact these Chinese eneloops are built on different patents and technology. They they are nothing more than a clone best effort within.

Agreed - the Chinese Eneloops IMHO are an Eneloop in name only.

This point would make me look for an alternative brand as good as the original Japanese Eneloop cell were.

It appears that the Fujitsu cells are identical to the Japanese made Eneloops and that they're made in the same factory.

Keep in mind that in this test at least, the Chinese cells did last longer than the original 1st gen Japanese cell that I previously tested - that could be down to cooler ambient temperatures though. My gut feeling is that the Chinese cells are somewhat similar to the 1st gen Japanese made Eneloops - they may be a bit better or a bit worse and that could also change depending on usage as well. Overall, I wouldn't go so far as to say that they're terrible, but my preference would be towards the Japanese cells since they do appear to be better.

Cells used to mention the patents protecting them printed on the jacket. I wonder if that is still the case to compare new to old production.

This is bad if correct very bad and the tests implies clearly that something is off, a lot off.

Good idea to check for patent numbers. As far as I can see though, there aren't any patent numbers printed on the side of my Eneloops...
 

Power Me Up

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Being the firmware developer, he has his own firmware so he can set it to anything he likes. You can can too if you want to mod the firmware.

That's true. I don't have a special version of the firmware that I use for testing, but the chargers that I run do tend to have newer firmware as I'm testing changes that I make before I release the updated firmware for everyone else to use.

I'm hoping for a version that will listen and take commands over serial. That way, you should be able to set any sort of program you like.

It's in the pipeline! :)

The testing method is important. It isn't just about cycles as special things happen on certain cycles.

I agree - it's definitely worth discussing the testing methods since invalid or incorrect tests mean that the results could be useless!
 

Power Me Up

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I would say that the greater part of this statement is not speculation. <snip>

Thanks for the informative post! I was pretty confident in that statement, but I wasn't aware of that information being published in the papers - I prefer to be explicit about being uncertain on things unless I'm absolutely certain.

Those of us who want the best, and appreciate the difference, owe Power Me Up a debt of gratitude for his extensive testing of Eneloop cells, since his efforts seem to demonstrate rather clearly that we should steer clear of Chinese made Eneloops, if possible.

Thanks! :)

I won't take all of the credit though. Sure - I wrote the firmware and ran the tests, but if it wasn't for Paul actually creating the charger and making them, I wouldn't have been able to do any of these tests!
 

Viking

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I think the below takeover agreement between SANYO Energy Twicell and FDK pretty much confirms what Rosoku Chikara has said all along. The agreement states that Sanyo was forced to sell some of its battery business due to anti-trust laws before the company could be taken over by Panasonic. And the divested battery business was in fact the Nimh business ( except for automobile use ). That must have included eneloops as I see it.


On the other hand, SANYO has been seeking a third party to accept transfer of part of
its battery business, as SANYO is required to do based on information obtained through
consultations with multilateral competition law authorities of many countries, in
response to a takeover bid("TOB") of SANYO by Panasonic Corporation..


http://www.fdk.co.jp/whatsnew-e/release091028b-e.pdf
 
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