Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

[Mr Happy]

I still have 24 Eneloops and 16 ROV Hybrids to break in yet

There is no conclusive evidence that Eneloops need or benefit from a break-in charge mind, so there's no need to process all those cells through any cycles. Just get them out of the package and start using them

 

[Black Rose]

There is no conclusive evidence that Eneloops need or benefit from a break-in charge mind, so there's no need to process all those cells through any cycles. Just get them out of the package and start using them

I read something about that the other night in an older thread from sometime last year.

I was going to ask that question again to see what the latest info was on that subject, to see if I needed to do the break in on those cells or not.

I'll just use some, then charge them up and then check the capacity.

 

[Bones]

There is no conclusive evidence that Eneloops need or benefit from a break-in charge mind, so there's no need to process all those cells through any cycles. Just get them out of the package and start using them

Although you are absolutely correct insofar as the conclusive evidence is concerned, I have made it a habit to run 3 back-to-back forming charges on my Eneloops before putting them into service.

Considering that almost all the Eneloops sold in North America seem to have been made around the middle of 2006, it just seems like a reasonable precaution.

I consider it equivilant to a good stretch in the morning, only in the case of the Eneloop, the night has lasted close to two years now in some instances.

Notwithstanding the apparent stability of the Enleoop during storage, it just seems inevitable to me that some separation and/or settling of the chemicals has to have taken place.

While the forming charge may be less important for lower drain devices, it would seem almost critical for those devices that require a high drain.

As I understand it, if there is chemical separation and/or settling, then hot spots could form in the dryer areas at higher drain rates, causing permanent damage to the cell.

Besides, what possible harm can it do, especially with an alleged 1000 cycles to play with?

...
The "forming" charge refers to a slow charge that is designed to equalize the electrolyte within the cell, and it also balances the cells within a battery pack. It also allows the separator to "soak up" the electrolyte so it can function to its maximum extent.

 

[Mr Happy]

Besides, what possible harm can it do, especially with an alleged 1000 cycles to play with?

Those are good points. Nothing is lost by paying careful attention to how you prepare and use your cells, and it can only ensure you get the best out of them. I will think about that next time I break open a pack of Eneloops.

 

[45/70]

I just thought I'd throw in a little C-9000/eneloop info here. I recently received 20 AA eneloops dated 8/06. I initially discharged them with the C-9000 @ 100mA rate. All were 1400+ mAh. I then ran the break in mode, but stopped it after the first charge. I then ran a refresh/analyze @ 1000mA charge, 500mA discharge. The cells checked out at 1939-2010mAh. The average was about 1970mAh. I realize this was only one 0.1C charge, however it would seem to indicate that the forming had little effect. Just the same, I'd probably do it that way again, as has been mentioned, it can't hurt.

Dave

 

[Codeman]

There is no conclusive evidence that Eneloops need or benefit from a break-in charge mind, so there's no need to process all those cells through any cycles. Just get them out of the package and start using them

While a break-in technically shouldn't be needed with new and fresh cells, my 19 month test showed that they do need periodic maintenance. If someone buys some "new" Eneloops that were manufactured a year or more prior to purchase, they will need some help to get up to full capacity. All that's left to decide are the semantics of what to call such a charge.:shrug:

 

[Mr Happy]

Hi Codeman,

I just took another look at your 19 month test post, and I have to say your results are exactly in line with the normally expected performance for Eneloops. A normal charge with top-off on the C9000 will give discharge capacities in the 1850-1900 range, while a break-in charge will give capacities in the 1900-1950 range, sometimes up to 1980. A break-in charge is a fuller charge than a regular charge.

So it seems to me that your 19 month old cells were performing to spec right out of the package.

Of course, as discussed above, a refresh cycle or two might be a good idea anyway just to ensure the cells are in top condition.

 

[Eugene]

I thought eneloop were supposed to be a min of 2000mAh?

 

[Mr Happy]

Eneloops are nominally 2000 mAh, minimum 1900 mAh.

Here is the Sanyo data sheet: http://www.eneloop.info/uploads/media/Datasheet_-_HR-3UTG_01.pdf

According to the way industry measures and quotes nominal capacity, the full nominal capacity is not typically available in normal usage.

Also to reinforce what Bones said above, the linked Sanyo data sheet says the internal resistance of Eneloops will reach a typical low value of 25 milliohms after going through two to three break-in cycles from new.

 

[Turak]

There is no conclusive evidence that Eneloops need or benefit from a break-in charge mind, so there's no need to process all those cells through any cycles. Just get them out of the package and start using them

I would have to disagree with you regarding the Break-In cycles. I did a bit of testing on the Eneloops and found that they DID benefit from 1 or 2 Break-In cycles when new.

The test was actually trying to determine whether the new Eneloops did better with a few Refresh/Analyze cycles or a couple Break-In cycles when new.

The results.....the Eneloops, even though new, did benefit from both the R/A cycles and from the Break-In cycles, with the Break-In cycles coming out just slightly ahead.

Go read the following thread...

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/175350


Batt# - Initial Capacity - BreakIn Cycle 1 - BreakIn Cycle 2
-----------------------------------------------------------
EL5 - 1478 mA - 2068 mA - 2150 mA
EL6 - 1477 mA - 2064 mA - 2141 mA
EL7 - 1468 mA - 2057 mA - 2141 mA
EL8 - 1488 mA - 2074 mA - 2169 mA

Generally speaking, the 'new' Eneloops have been sitting on the shelf for a year or two. General recommendations say to run a Break-In cycle on any battery that has been sitting idle for 3 months or more.

I think that the single test above shows that the batteries DID indeed benefit from 2 Break-In cycles, bringing them back up to their 'maximum' capacities. Not to mention helping to fully activate all the reactive materials in the battery.

I would say that, in general, if you want to try to maximize the life of your batteries. Run a Break-In cycle or two before ever using them. Then Run a R/A cycle every 10-15 cycles. Run a Break-In cycle every 25 or so.

Yes, you can just go ahead and start using them right out of the pack, although as the battery manufacturers state, "It may take a few charge/discharge cycles before the batteries reach their maximum performance".

For the low current draw devices, this is probably not too important. The high current draw devices, however, I think this becomes more of a factor for overall battery capacity/longevity.

 

[Turak]

There is no conclusive evidence that Eneloops need or benefit from a break-in charge mind, so there's no need to process all those cells through any cycles. Just get them out of the package and start using them

I would have to disagree with you regarding the Break-In cycles. I did a bit of testing on the Eneloops and found that they DID benefit from 1 or 2 Break-In cycles when new.

The test was actually trying to determine whether the new Eneloops did better with a few Refresh/Analyze cycles or a couple Break-In cycles when new.

The results.....the Eneloops, even though new, did benefit from both the R/A cycles and from the Break-In cycles, with the Break-In cycles coming out just slightly ahead.

Go read the following thread...

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/175350


Batt# - Initial Capacity - BreakIn Cycle 1 - BreakIn Cycle 2
-----------------------------------------------------------
EL5 - 1478 mA - 2068 mA - 2150 mA
EL6 - 1477 mA - 2064 mA - 2141 mA
EL7 - 1468 mA - 2057 mA - 2141 mA
EL8 - 1488 mA - 2074 mA - 2169 mA

Generally speaking, the 'new' Eneloops have been sitting on the shelf for a year or two. General recommendations say to run a Break-In cycle on any battery that has been sitting idle for 3 months or more.

I think that the single test above shows that the batteries DID indeed benefit from 2 Break-In cycles, bringing them back up to their 'maximum' capacities. Not to mention helping to fully activate all the reactive materials in the battery.

I would say that, in general, if you want to try to maximize the life of your batteries. Run a Break-In cycle or two before ever using them. Then Run a R/A cycle every 10-15 cycles. Run a Break-In cycle every 25 or so.

Yes, you can just go ahead and start using them right out of the pack, although as the battery manufacturers state, "It may take a few charge/discharge cycles before the batteries reach their maximum performance".

For the low current draw devices, this is probably not too important. The high current draw devices, however, I think this becomes more of a factor for overall battery capacity/longevity.

 

[Mr Happy]

I would have to disagree with you regarding the Break-In cycles. I did a bit of testing on the Eneloops and found that they DID benefit from 1 or 2 Break-In cycles when new.

No problem, I have revised my opinion on this -- see posts above.

For average users I'd say Eneloops don't need breaking in, but for best performance they certainly can benefit from breaking in.

Incidentally, I'm puzzled by your ~2150 mAh capacity measurements. Have you measured numbers that high with other samples than just those four? They are higher numbers than I have measured myself or seen reported elsewhere.

 

[Turak]

I have checked the capacities on well over 30 'new' (2006) Eneloops so far...

I generally am getting between 2050 to 2150 out of all of them....when new and after at least 2 Break-In cycles.

I beleive it is because my MH-C9000 is a slightly older revision 0G0B01. It seems that the newer units are more conservative on their calculations. They are DEFINITELY more conservative on how fully they charge a cell now (basically they don't). Well....I should say, not as full as the earlier units did. Maha backed off because some cells were getting too hot when charging them at the 1A rate.

I definitely agree as far as the 'average' users. Its the power users and the maximize the life (cycles) that are going to see the most benefit from the extra care...

 

[Rzr800]

"...I beleive it is because my MH-C9000 is a slightly older revision 0G0B01. It seems that the newer units are more conservative on their calculations. They are DEFINITELY more conservative on how fully they charge a cell now (basically they don't). Well....I should say, not as full as the earlier units did.."

This has to be the dumbest question of the month...yet is this why we witness the average "two hour" extra charging time in many member's posts...and is this advice centered around the newer chargers? (thanks in advance; I have an OGOE01).

 

[Bones]

This has to be the dumbest question of the month...

Sorry, but their actually valid questions all, Rzr800.

yet is this why we witness the average "two hour" extra charging time in many member's posts...

Yes.

and is this advice centered around the newer chargers?

Again, yes.

(thanks in advance; I have an OGOE01).

Your welcome, and the OGOE01 does qualify as a 'newer' charger.

 

[Rzr800]

You're a good man, my friend; as are the many others who have taken the time to educate us on this machine and batteries in general. I never fully realized previously how or if an investment such as this would benefit; yet having it together now with this site's guidance has made a big difference in something actually significant in our family's budget.

 

[Mr Happy]

Regarding the charging of Eneloops on the C9000, it's illuminating to look at Sanyo's data sheet for AA Eneloops that I linked to above: http://www.eneloop.info/uploads/media/Datasheet_-_HR-3UTG_01.pdf

If you look at the bottom of this document at the typical charge/discharge curves, this is what is shown:

Fast charge is recommended at 1C, 2000 mA, with termination at minus delta-V = -10 mV. At 25°C, the peak voltage prior to termination is above 1.6 V. With this charge, discharge at 400 mA with termination at 1.0 V will give a measured capacity a little less than 2000 mAh.

Now the later model C9000 chargers will stop charging when the cell voltage reaches 1.47 V, so they will never reach the 1.6 V minus delta-V point. This explains why you get "low" charge capacities of Eneloops on the C9000. On the other hand, the cells don't have a chance to get warm, so it is actually being kind to the cells this way.

 

[TorchBoy]

Incidentally, I'm puzzled by your ~2150 mAh capacity measurements.

I have seen Eneloop AA capacities as high as 2116 mAh, and a handful 2100 mAh or higher.

Your welcome, and the OGOE01 does qualify as a 'newer' charger.

I believe 0G0E01 (zeros, not Os) was the first batch of the third firmware version.

 

[chewy78]

Well I have the ogoka version and i just finished a break in of my ''duraloop cells. They were 1968,1921,1955,and 1978. I did a 400ma discharge after that and I still got 1974,1926,1959, and 1986 respectively. Isn't that on the low side?

 

[Bones]

...
I believe 0G0E01 (zeros, not Os) was the first batch of the third firmware version.

Good to know Torchboy, and good news for Rzr800.

And you're correct in the format, which I must make it a point to remember.

Otherwise, searching for pertinent information on the MH-C9000 updates becomes a much more difficult endeavour.