Object/Subject Review: Sunwayman T20CS

[Bigmac_79]

Re: Object/Subject Review: Sunwayman T20CS (In Progress)

Thank you, Bigmac_79, for the video on the interface. It clears up my confusion. Though, the interface looks busy, but I haven't tried it out myself yet so I can't make any judgement.

You're welcome :thumbsup:

I'll elaborate on my opinion as I finish the review, but basically, while I think the UI isn't as simple as I would like, it works well as a tactical interface.

great review ! reminds me of a surefire Z2 on steriods, nice ! do you only have trustfire 18650, i need some not sure what to buy, are you happy with there performance in a high output light like this ?

The only 18650 cells I have right now are the Trustfire Flames 2400 mAh from DX. For the price I paid for them, I am very happy I would love to have some higher quality cells that could perform better in high output lights like this, but that's just not in the budget right now. If you can afford it, I would recommend something better quality, but if not, these will get the job done.

Great reviews BigMac.
On a V10R or V20C XM-L's, the amperage is low; around 1.5 amps or even less.
On this T20CS with 658 lumens, the amperage is high; or close to 3 amps.
The electronic circuit will add to the amperage too.
Do you notice any flickering, or your Trustfires and XxxFires playing up?
Coz it played up on my SC600 with 750 lumens OTF.
Do you have any reputable AW or Redilast 2900/3100 mAH batteries to test? Because they may give you greater output too.
Callieskustoms are also high quality Panasonic cells, with aftermarket protection circuits added, but at a cheaper price than the others...

I've not noticed any flickering with any cells, or any other problems with the performance. I just believe that highe quality batteries will be able to sustain higher outputs for longer periods of time. I've seen a little info on Callieskustoms cells, I need to check out the pricing on those.

On the matter of batteries:
...
...
...

Thanks for sharing your knowledge of batteries! As far as I know, all the facts you've shared are true. On the higher modes, there will be more voltage sag (and I have definitely observed that in my tests, the voltage measured across the battery rises quickly after I turn off the light), and on the lower modes, there will be less. However, I'm not prepared to agree with your final assertion until I've looked into the specifics a little more. Your example makes sense, but the actual numbers are what's important, so we can't afford to guess. I'll do some research. What I need to find out is: the voltage it is "safe" to discharge a li-ion cell to, the voltage that is "healthy" for the cell to discharge to, and just how much the current sags on the lower modes.

Here's why. The voltage sag acts as a buffer for the protection circuit. The low voltage indicator on the T20CS sees the same sagged voltage as the protection circuit sees, so the "real" (resting) voltage of the cell will always be at least slightly higher than the voltage under load, and slightly higher than what the protection circuit and low voltage indicator see. This means that as long as the protection circuit is set to cutoff at a high enough voltage (greater than the healthy discharge voltage for the cell) then there won't be any problems.

For example, if it is safe to discharge a cell to 2.75 volts, and the protection kicks in at 2.8 under load, the resting voltage will actually be higher than 2.8, which is also higher than 2.75.

And anyway, if it isn't safe to run a cell down to the voltage where the protection kicks in, even under very small loads with little voltage sag, then that seems to me to be a problem with the voltage the protection circuit is set to, not the low voltage indicator on the T20CS.

I'll look into it more, but according to this page: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?308451, it looks like for many brands of cells, there is still a small amount of usable capacity below 3V, which is about where I measure the T20CS's low voltage indicator to come on when in low mode.

 

[Lou Maan]

Re: Object/Subject Review: Sunwayman T20CS (In Progress)

I sense you will be getting many free lights in the future if you keep up these excellent reviews. Bigmac, that is either one very small light or you really live up to your name with massive hands. Usually we'll call someone who is big: "Tiny Tim" or something. I don't know. What do I care. Just an observation.

 

[Lou Maan]

Re: Object/Subject Review: Sunwayman T20CS (In Progress)

BTW... who would like Sunwayman to make a tactical bezel on this tactical light? Say "I".

 

[Bigmac_79]

Re: Object/Subject Review: Sunwayman T20CS (In Progress)

My hands are definitely largely than average, so you can take that into consideration when you look at the photos, but this light really is a lot smaller than I expected it to be.

I also think a crenelated bezel would work very well on this light, it could be designed to match the pattern of the grooves on the head, and it would look extremely good.

 

[robusmcs13]

Re: Object/Subject Review: Sunwayman T20CS (In Progress)

Great review, Thanks!

 

[Helmut.G]

Re: Object/Subject Review: Sunwayman T20CS (In Progress)

[...] but the actual numbers are what's important, so we can't afford to guess. [...]

Agreed.

Here's a small quote from AW's battery sales thread, there are numbers on how much energy is available at certain voltages and advice on how to treat LiIon batteries:

[...] Please keep the voltage of all LiIon batteries above 3.8V for healthy storage. Recharge as soon as possible when you have run them down. Storing a depleted ( less than 3.6V open voltage ) battery may damage/ shorten life/cycle permanently.


LiIon Battery Charge Status

4.2V – 100%
4.1V – 87%
4.0V – 75%
3.9V – 55%
3.8V – 30%
3.5V – 0%

 

[peterharvey73]

Re: Object/Subject Review: Sunwayman T20CS (In Progress)

BigMac, I noticed you added some nice photos.
With a 38mm bezel diameter, the T20CS is still a tad relatively small-medium in size rather than a true medium size like an RRT-1 or RRT-15 with a 48mm bezel diameter, however all that is relative only.

BM, did you notice that your current draw was:
1.55 amps on 2xCR123 Energizers,
0.998 amps on 2x16340 Ultrafires,
1.96 amps on 1x18650 Trustfire?

Helmut was saying something similar about how the cheaper low quality batteries have more internal resistance, thus a slower discharge rate, hence a lower amperage, which generally means less lumens too.
Notice how the Ultrafire 16340's are only drawing 0.998 amps on turbo?

In general, the bigger 18650 will have lower internal resistance, and a faster discharge rate, with a higher amperage, than a 16340.
Thus 1.96 amps on the 18650 versus just 0.998 amps on the 2x16340 Ultrafires.

Rechargeables tend to have a lower internal resistance and faster discharge rate with higher amperage than disposable batteries.
Here, at 0.998 amps, the Ultrafire 16340's may be underperforming relative to the Energizer 2xCR123's?
However, we can try an AW 16340 750 mAH Protected from AW himself:
http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?230876-AW-s-LiIon-Batteries-Sales-Thread-*Part-12*
He is very reliable; I live in Australia, and I normally receive them in 8 working days, in a nice plastic 2x18650/4x16340 container too!
The AW's are used as a benchmark by Selfbuilt etc.

BM, with the lower current draws on turbo mode, do you notice less lumen output too?
Because when I used Ultrafire 18650 2400 mAH Protected on my SC600, it was less bright than when I used quality Redilast 3100 mAH Button Tops.
The quality Panasonic cells with aftermarket Jap IC Protection circuits have lower internal resistance, and so deliver a higher amperage to my hungry SC600 with 750 lumens OTF, than my Ultrafire 18650's...

 

[Grizzlyb]

Re: Object/Subject Review: Sunwayman T20CS (In Progress)

Bigmac,

Thanks for the clear review. Sunwayman seems to be on target with this one.
1 point I dislike, there is no way to set the strobe in memory.
From my point of view, that is a reason we can't use this light for our work.
I look forward to the subjective Review thou, specialy the Tactical part.

 

[Rokron]

Re: Object/Subject Review: Sunwayman T20CS (In Progress)

I!

BTW... who would like Sunwayman to make a tactical bezel on this tactical light? Say "I".

 

[zs&tas]

Re: Object/Subject Review: Sunwayman T20CS (In Progress)

The only 18650 cells I have right now are the Trustfire Flames 2400 mAh from DX. For the price I paid for them, I am very happy I would love to have some higher quality cells that could perform better in high output lights like this, but that's just not in the budget right now. If you can afford it, I would recommend something better quality, but if not, these will get the job done.



.

ok thanks, just got my first 18650 light got some cheaper ultrafire 3100 for now just so i have avaliable juice, ill prolly get an aw2900 in a few months.

im liking the flat bezel ! wish my scorpion had one ..

 

[Helmut.G]

Re: Object/Subject Review: Sunwayman T20CS (In Progress)

[...]1.96 amps on the 18650 versus just 0.998 amps on the 2x16340 Ultrafires. [...]

It's actually completely normal for a regulated light like this to draw less current at a higher voltage.
Since 2x16340 have two times the voltage of 1x18650, the input power stays the same while current halves. The output power to the LED should also stay at roughly the same value, but most drivers have a different efficiency at different input voltages.
In order to judge the quality of the ultrafire 16340s you would need to compare them to other 16340-sized batteries to be able to draw any useful conclusions.

 

[RCLumens]

Re: Object/Subject Review: Sunwayman T20CS (In Progress)

Bigmac, I agree - with these kinds of reviews, I hope you get plenty of lights sent your way. I hope the manufacturers realize what a value these are and not to mention, it benefits them hugely. I'm anxious to see the bra shots and to hear your impressions after all the data is gathered. As for the batteries, I think it's actually an advantage to test using standard batteries as this plays in part to most real world applications. At least speaking for myself, I have some AW's set aside for stand-bys as most of my applications grant me access to recharging daily.

Thus far it seems like the light is holding up rather well. Ui could probably be easier, but it doesn't sound like it's a hinderance either. It does look small in the pics and based on your impressions, so I'm curious on the throw numbers and pics. Awesome review and very helpful! Any chance you have a tk21 to compare it to? Also, do you know anyone who can do a thorough review of an RRT3 triple XML? Cheers and many thanks!

 

[Lou Maan]

Re: Object/Subject Review: Sunwayman T20CS (In Progress)

ok thanks, just got my first 18650 light got some cheaper ultrafire 3100 for now just so i have avaliable juice, ill prolly get an aw2900 in a few months.

im liking the flat bezel ! wish my scorpion had one ..

Look that's fair enough. It doesn't chew up the inside of your pocket. But I like the fact that with my V20C, I have the option. Most people don't know that there is the same one available on V20C as with the T20C. Btw, that is the best (most pain inflicting) bezel I have ever worn on any flashlight. That's okay, when I go out with my flat bezel T20CS, I'll just carry something else in my other pocket for protection. Just means I have to carry 2 things. 3.5x more cd power is worth it I guess (as long as the hot spot isn't too small) although the V20C does a good job.

@ Bigmac. Did you know you can turn it on from the side switch straight to high even though your last programmed memory might be low or medium? Yep, just hold down the side switch and you have a slightly delayed but still convenient high if you're in a pinch. Great photos and videos btw.

 

[Bigmac_79]

Re: Object/Subject Review: Sunwayman T20CS (In Progress)

Agreed.

Here's a small quote from AW's battery sales thread, there are numbers on how much energy is available at certain voltages and advice on how to treat LiIon batteries:

Thanks for those numbers, that's very helpful! That's consistent with the data I have found in my research as well. It looks like on the two top 18650 brands on CPFMP (AW and Redilast), their capacity is listed from 4.2V to 2.8V or 2.5V. AW protection circuits seem to be set to 2.2V and Redilast to 2.5V or 2.45V. From what I can tell, discharging your cell down to the protection circuit is acceptable, but you don't want to do it really often, and you definitely don't want to store your cell at the voltage. The danger to relying on the protection circuit seems to be not that the voltage cutoff is too low for the cells, but that on low currents, sometimes you can slip past the voltage the protection circuit without activating it, taking your cell down to levels waaaayyy too low (or sometimes the protection circuit can get damaged without your realizing it). So, if you do let your cell get down to 2.5 or 2.8V, using the full capacity, you want to make sure you recharge it right away, and don't let it sit in that condition.

Luckily for us, the T20CS has the low voltage indicator, which comes on at least by the time the cell hits 3V. So, for now I'm going to recommend that for optimal cell health, you should be recharging your 18650's before the low voltage indicator comes on when you can, but it won't hurt your cells to wait until the indicator warns you. And in general, with whatever light you use, don't rely too heavily on the protection circuits of your protected cells.

After this, I'll agree that I would prefer the low voltage indicator to be set a little higher, so that you don't unknowingly store your cells at a voltage lower than 3.8V. I can see myself running the battery down to 3.5V and then turning the light off when I'm done with it, and storing it that way for a while without realizing the voltage was so low. Ideally, the low voltage indicator could come on solid around 3.7V or 3.8V to let you know it's time to recharge before storage, and then start flashing around 2.8V or 2.9V to let you know you're reaching the end of the battery's capacity.

Thanks for your helping in working this out!

BigMac, I noticed you added some nice photos.
With a 38mm bezel diameter, the T20CS is still a tad relatively small-medium in size rather than a true medium size like an RRT-1 or RRT-15 with a 48mm bezel diameter, however all that is relative only.

BM, did you notice that your current draw was:
1.55 amps on 2xCR123 Energizers,
0.998 amps on 2x16340 Ultrafires,
1.96 amps on 1x18650 Trustfire?

Helmut was saying something similar about how the cheaper low quality batteries have more internal resistance, thus a slower discharge rate, hence a lower amperage, which generally means less lumens too.
Notice how the Ultrafire 16340's are only drawing 0.998 amps on turbo?

In general, the bigger 18650 will have lower internal resistance, and a faster discharge rate, with a higher amperage, than a 16340.
Thus 1.96 amps on the 18650 versus just 0.998 amps on the 2x16340 Ultrafires.

Rechargeables tend to have a lower internal resistance and faster discharge rate with higher amperage than disposable batteries.
Here, at 0.998 amps, the Ultrafire 16340's may be underperforming relative to the Energizer 2xCR123's?
However, we can try an AW 16340 750 mAH Protected from AW himself:
http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?230876-AW-s-LiIon-Batteries-Sales-Thread-*Part-12*
He is very reliable; I live in Australia, and I normally receive them in 8 working days, in a nice plastic 2x18650/4x16340 container too!
The AW's are used as a benchmark by Selfbuilt etc.

BM, with the lower current draws on turbo mode, do you notice less lumen output too?
Because when I used Ultrafire 18650 2400 mAH Protected on my SC600, it was less bright than when I used quality Redilast 3100 mAH Button Tops.
The quality Panasonic cells with aftermarket Jap IC Protection circuits have lower internal resistance, and so deliver a higher amperage to my hungry SC600 with 750 lumens OTF, than my Ultrafire 18650's...

I agree on your opinion of the size, I would call this slightly smaller than a "medium" sized light

It's true that higher quality betters have lower internal resistance, and are thus able to provide higher currents. However, I did expect the current draw on 2x18650 to be the highest, then 2xCR123, then 1x18650, because of the voltage difference. At higher voltages, the driver doesn't need as much current from the batteries in order to supply the correct current to the LED. I did some interesting measurements yesterday that I haven't posted yet. As you'll notice, the measurements I already posted were done at the tail cap, but I discovered I can also do measurements at the emitter, and when I do, I find the voltage applied to the LED (and thus the current flowing through it) to be the nearly identical across both 2x16340 and 1x18650 on all modes, even turbo.

You'll also notice on the output graphs that each battery starts with very nearly the same output on Turbo (close enough to chock up the differences to instrument error if you want). My opinion is that higher quality batteries will be able to sustain those currents better for longer periods of time, but at the beginning, both my lions are right up there with the energizer CR123 primaries.

I would love to have some name-brand lions, but at this time I really don't have the money for them. I'm taking volunteers that want to donate some for the advancement of science

Bigmac,

Thanks for the clear review. Sunwayman seems to be on target with this one.
1 point I dislike, there is no way to set the strobe in memory.
From my point of view, that is a reason we can't use this light for our work.
I look forward to the subjective Review thou, specialy the Tactical part.

You're welcome

It's true that the strobe doesn't get set in memory. However, in practice the strobe is actually quicker to get to than, say, low mode. Once you have the T20CS in "standby" (by turning it on by the tail cap, then off with the side switch), you can go directly into strobe by a double-click on the side at any time. This way, you never have to cycle through modes when you need strobe quickly, and it doesn't get in your way when you don't want it. To me, this seems a better setup than having strobe in the regular lineup of modes, whether you use it often or not.

Just curious, what work is it that you do, and what do you look for in a "tactical" interface on a light for your work?

 

[Bigmac_79]

Re: Object/Subject Review: Sunwayman T20CS (In Progress)

It's actually completely normal for a regulated light like this to draw less current at a higher voltage.
Since 2x16340 have two times the voltage of 1x18650, the input power stays the same while current halves. The output power to the LED should also stay at roughly the same value, but most drivers have a different efficiency at different input voltages.
In order to judge the quality of the ultrafire 16340s you would need to compare them to other 16340-sized batteries to be able to draw any useful conclusions.

Yep, that's my understanding as well. While the LED is output is determined by current, the driver supplies current to the LED based on the power it receives, which is voltage x current. So as long as the battery can supply enough current to make up for lowering voltage, the driver can supply a constant current

Bigmac, I agree - with these kinds of reviews, I hope you get plenty of lights sent your way. I hope the manufacturers realize what a value these are and not to mention, it benefits them hugely. I'm anxious to see the bra shots and to hear your impressions after all the data is gathered. As for the batteries, I think it's actually an advantage to test using standard batteries as this plays in part to most real world applications. At least speaking for myself, I have some AW's set aside for stand-bys as most of my applications grant me access to recharging daily.

Thus far it seems like the light is holding up rather well. Ui could probably be easier, but it doesn't sound like it's a hinderance either. It does look small in the pics and based on your impressions, so I'm curious on the throw numbers and pics. Awesome review and very helpful! Any chance you have a tk21 to compare it to? Also, do you know anyone who can do a thorough review of an RRT3 triple XML? Cheers and many thanks!

There'll be no bra shots, I'm a happily married man :nana:

But seriously, I'm looking forward to doing the beam shots as well.

No, I don't have a TK21 or RRT3 to compare this to, but, just like the name brand batteries, I wouldn't turn down a donation for the advancement of science

@ Bigmac. Did you know you can turn it on from the side switch straight to high even though your last programmed memory might be low or medium? Yep, just hold down the side switch and you have a slightly delayed but still convenient high if you're in a pinch. Great photos and videos btw.

I hadn't discovered/noticed that, thanks!

 

[peterharvey73]

Re: Object/Subject Review: Sunwayman T20CS (In Progress)

It's actually completely normal for a regulated light like this to draw less current at a higher voltage.
Since 2x16340 have two times the voltage of 1x18650, the input power stays the same while current halves. The output power to the LED should also stay at roughly the same value, but most drivers have a different efficiency at different input voltages.
In order to judge the quality of the ultrafire 16340s you would need to compare them to other 16340-sized batteries to be able to draw any useful conclusions.

Thanks for pointing that out Helmut; we learn something new everyday.
You're right. I did not take into account that with two batteries, in series, the voltage adds together.
P=VI
Power (watts) = Voltage (volts) x Current (amps)
Power can neither be created, nor destroyed; however, power can be lost by friction or heat etc.
So, with 2xCR123's, the voltage goes up to 6 volts, so the current must go down, to maintain the overall power.
With 2x16340's, the voltage goes up to 7.4 volts etc, so the current must go down a long way, to maintain the overall power.
Thus, like you say, we can only compare the current/amperage from the twin 16340 Ultrafires, to another pair of 16340 batteries.

PS.
Actually Helmut, I'm now a bit confused?
Perhaps you could help me.
The reason why a V10R XM-L U2 bin has 160 lumens on a 3.0 volt 1xCR123, but 500 lumens on a 3.7 volt 16340, is because the voltage rises, but the current is maintained or even increased, so there is actually more power in Watts when using the 16340's?
It's complicated - I'm confused...

 

[Lou Maan]

Re: Object/Subject Review: Sunwayman T20CS (In Progress)

PS.
Actually Helmut, I'm now a bit confused?
Perhaps you could help me.
The reason why a V10R XM-L U2 bin has 160 lumens on a 3.0 volt 1xCR123, but 500 lumens on a 3.7 volt 16340, is because the voltage rises, but the current is maintained or even increased, so there is actually more power in Watts when using the 16340's?
It's complicated - I'm confused...

Ok, I know nothing but here's what I'm thinking and I tried starting a thread about that without too many good answers. There must be a certain voltage (maybe 3.6 volts I don't know) where circuitry on the Ti2 says: "okay! we're dealing with a 16340 here, let's suck all the voltage AND amps we can out of this battery, but no more than we need to get us to 500 lumens." If it wasn't limited to 500, I could stick AW IMR's which do 8C and I'd get 900 lumens, who's with me?

I hope someone can answer that but anyway, all I can say is the Ti2 is visibly brighter on Trustifre 16340 than the 460 lumen regular V10R. It's only 60 lumens difference so I shouldn't be able to tell visually but it seems to be able to draw a lot more power out of the same battery. Another thing I noticed is that my M10A on a 14500 doesn't do all that well on high but with strobe, it's like it's probably hitting the 460 mark. Probably because strobe takes half the power that high does so it can produce the lumens. Anyway, just answering a question but I'm probably on a tangent. But i believe the topic of batteries have everything to do with the light itself so you can't keep them seperate. No battery, no light. This is a good thread.

 

[peterharvey73]

Re: Object/Subject Review: Sunwayman T20CS (In Progress)

You have a good idea Lou Maan; perhaps it works like that...

 

[Bigmac_79]

Re: Object/Subject Review: Sunwayman T20CS (In Progress)

"General" and "Tactical" sections of the subjective review complete!

 

[candle lamp]

Re: Object/Subject Review: Sunwayman T20CS (In Progress)

Very well done. Bigmac79!
Thanks for your very nice review and effort. :thumbsup:
It looks very good & well-made light.
It's just a shame that the performance on 1x18650 is not better than I expect. Assume it's because of the wide working voltage(2.5~10V).

P.S : But T40CS shows the flat regulation with 18650's in spite of 5.5~16.8V working range. :shrug:.

Thanks again for the review.