Overdischarge of NiZn Cells

core

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Mario-

There is no need to go through the trouble draining your cell down to 0V. It will get there on it's OWN in a couple more days! :p

Battery Guy would know better than I would, but I'd say there is absolutely zero to be gained by even attempting to do so. I'd say you'd just be damaging it further, but it's basically up a creek now anyway.

How are you going to charge it afterwards? The PowerGenix charger won't do it. If you connect it to a good cell, I'm actually not sure how long that would take to bring it up to minimum voltage. That thing is going to get hotter than HELL, I would not want to be holding it.

And it's going to get even hotter still on the charger. My failing-but-not-dead-yet ones get hot enough to cause a warm plastic smell from the charger. Not worth cooking a charger for just yet another bad cell.

There is no thermal cutoff on the white charger, contrary to what you read in the datasheet.
 

MarioJP

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I still have the other 3 going but they get hot fast when charging. I am starting to look at these cells as "niche". These cells are beneficial for devices that need the extra voltage,which are probably pulsed drain on those devices like a flash camera split second burst.

Maybe then these batteries will last as advertised. As for electric motors will also benefit but not necessary as these cells will give the motor that extra punch, and are gentle on the cells if the motor is not stressed.

Now when you put them in devices that ARE designed for NiMh cells. These devices has a higher potential to wreck havoc on nizn cells, as the cut off voltage is too low resulting of polarity reversal if cells in series are uneven.

I think that is what happen to cell #4
 

MarioJP

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How are you going to charge it afterwards? The PowerGenix charger won't do it. If you connect it to a good cell, I'm actually not sure how long that would take to bring it up to minimum voltage. That thing is going to get hotter than HELL, I would not want to be holding it.

Quite simple actually, when its charger won't do it the La-crosse can lol.

When I put cell #4 in the charger the display read 0.64v (don't ask me how that was possible, charger detecting a cell at that voltage, all i know it saw the cell lol.) left it at its default of 200mA, voltage went from 0.64 to 0.85v stood there for about a min.

Then it gradually start to climb to 0.94v stood there for 5 minutes. 3 minutes later voltage hit 1v stood there for 2 minutes. After a minute or so voltage went up to 1.10 and then started to skyrocket and it went like this

1.10v> 1.3v> 1.5v> 1.6> 1.7> and finally stabilized at 1.82v.

Since then voltage been sitting there for an hour charging and I think it just hit 1.83v as i am typing this post lol,and has dumped total of 275mA, and counting so far within the hour. Cell is still cool to the touch. I would want to charge the cell slower but 200mA is the lowest I can go lol.

Keep you posted. And I had no choice for this particular cell lol.
 
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Battery Guy

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Quite simple actually, when its charger won't do it the La-crosse can lol.

I find this quite interesting. I personally never use the PowerGenix charger, and always charge the cells on my Maccor battery tester using the CC/CV protocol in the PowerGenix spec sheets. I have not yet seen a problem with these cells.

Can somebody comment on how the LaCrosse charger would be different from the PowerGenix charger?

Cheers,
Battery Guy
 

Mr Happy

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Can somebody comment on how the LaCrosse charger would be different from the PowerGenix charger?
The LaCrosse charger is specifically meant for NiMH cells. It is not designed to charge NiZn cells! However, if it never takes the cells above 1.9 V it presumably can't harm them.
 

MarioJP

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Did not say charger was meant for these cells but it does charges.

In any case cell#4 was getting warm to hot and while the voltage was still at 1.8v. I can see why the cells gets hot in the powergenix charger. Voltage does not hit 1.9v mark!


Update: Well was not able to hit the 1.9 at 200mA rate, as the cell got quite hot. After that this cell became difficult to charge and voltage drop to 1.79. Reason why it was getting difficult because I was getting way too many terminations at random. Does not matter if it was 1 minute or 10 minutes.

So decided to amp it up once the cell was cooled of course lol. Going from 200mA to blasting the cell at 1500mA charge rate!. Results were no termination, but the cell got too hot to handle and still was not able to achieve the 1.9v goal, instead it was stuck at 1.80v and eventually trip the thermal sensor, causing to display the infamous triple 0's!!.

Next step put the cell #4 in the freezer!!.

keep you posted
 
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MarioJP

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Does the LaCrosse charger even go up to 1.9V?

That my friend is what I am about to post lol.

Results are in!. After putting cell #4 in the freezer for couple of hours' and put back in the charger (while still cold) set the charging current 1A. The cell voltage finally hit 1.9v mark! (Should of taken pictures). And it was not a struggle like last time.

Voltage started to climb quickly less than a minute and stopped at 1.9v!

Anyways I can see why, while in the powergenix charger these cells gets really hot!.

Once the cells are damaged, they become very stubborn. Still not sure however if freezing the cell caused it to hit 1.9v. With that said somebody needs to do an extensive tests on these cells from the day they were new to how they degrade overtime.

In any case. Unless the powergenix charger has some sort of thermal protection, I would keep an eye out when charging "stubborn" cells".
 
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Battery Guy

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That my friend is what I am about to post lol.

Results are in!. After putting cell #4 in the freezer for couple of hours' and put back in the charger (while still cold) set the charging current 1A. The cell voltage finally hit 1.9v mark! (Should of taken pictures). And it was not a struggle like last time.

Voltage started to climb quickly less than a minute and stopped at 1.9v!

Why would the LaCrosse charger even go up to 1.9V? That is very surprising.

With that said somebody needs to do an extensive tests on these cells from the day they were new to how they degrade overtime.

At present I am doing cycling tests to look at normal cycling and overcharge cycling behavior. I plan to add some overdischarge cycling tests to the test regimen. Hope to have some good results in a few weeks.

Cheers,
Battery Guy
 

MarioJP

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Why would the LaCrosse charger even go up to 1.9V? That is very surprising.

More surprising question, why did it detect a cell with the voltage of 0.6??. In any case, let's just say that the firmware on this charger has exploits getting around the "full display" that I can think of 2 exploits already:D

But then again the manual makes it sounds its not really a exploit at all lol. It clearly states in bold font letters. this charger is strictly for charging NiMh batteries. Vs will detect primary cells from accidentally being charged. What is it trying to say? that you can but you really shouldn't lol.

At present I am doing cycling tests to look at normal cycling and overcharge cycling behavior. I plan to add some overdischarge cycling tests to the test regimen. Hope to have some good results in a few weeks

Cheers,
Battery Guy.
This will be interesting to see. I still think these cells are too fragile.
 
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Battery Guy

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More surprising question, why did it detect a cell with the voltage of 0.6??. In any case, let's just say that the firmware on this charger has exploits getting around the "full display" that I can think of 2 exploits already:D

But then again the manual makes it sounds its not really a exploit at all lol. It clearly states in bold font letters. this charger is strictly for charging NiMh batteries. Vs will detect primary cells from accidentally being charged. What is it trying to say? that you can but you really shouldn't lol.

This will be interesting to see. I still think these cells are too fragile.

My guess would be that it determines if a cell is a primary cell by an internal resistance measurement. An alkaline cell will typically be >150 ohms, and a lithium primary will typically be >90 ohms. Compare that to typical NiMH cells that are <50 ohms.

Based on my measurements, the NiZn cells have an internal resistance comparable to NiMH, so the charger probably cannot tell the difference.

I still cannot understand why a charger designed for NiMH would go up to a voltage of 1.9V.

Cheers,
Battery Guy
 

MarioJP

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My guess would be that it determines if a cell is a primary cell by an internal resistance measurement. An alkaline cell will typically be >150 ohms, and a lithium primary will typically be >90 ohms. Compare that to typical NiMH cells that are <50 ohms.

Based on my measurements, the NiZn cells have an internal resistance comparable to NiMH, so the charger probably cannot tell the difference.

I still cannot understand why a charger designed for NiMH would go up to a voltage of 1.9V.

Cheers,
Battery Guy

I really doubt it even checks for resistance for the simple fact that I have NiMh cells that has been rejected by other chargers but has no problem charging in the La crosse, so I would not be surprised if it starts to charge alkaline cells lol.

and 2 it did in fact started to charge a alkaline cell (whoops lol) when it was discharging a alkaline cell out of curiosity to find out what the capacities are. Lucky it was only for couple of seconds and yanked the cell out lol.

and for the why this charger hits the 1.9v?. what really is happening is the charger is in fact working like it suppose to as any voltage above 1.40v will display "FULL" automatically. that is iF you go by normal operating procedure according to the manual lol.

What is happening is when you put a cell, fully charged you automatically see the "FULL" on the display like it suppose to right.

This is where the exploit or in my opinion could be an exploit comes in:D.

You have couple of seconds (first 4 seconds according to manual) to make a change. Within this "time window period" you can override the "FULL" and select the charge rate by pressing the current key, ignoring all conditions, states, of the cell.

Once you have selected the desired current, controls locks and display starts to flash, and starts charging a fully charged cell lol. Now for NiMh cell the full will kick in shortly as there will be -dv. Could be 5 or 10 minutes later.

for a ni-zn however it just keeps going for half an hour to an hour before terminating, sometimes does not terminate at all lol, and just keeps going all the way to 1.9v. And if you don't stop it the voltage will continue to climb to almost 2V!.

And that my friend is exploit #1! you didn't hear it from me:whistle:

I also use this exploit to top off my eneloops at 200mA and stop the charge when voltage is between 1.52v-1.53v

going back to the ni-zn results. This gave me a clue to why your powergenix charger just keeps dumping current on those poor already damaged cells to the point they are hot. Like I stated before. Voltage does not hit where it suppose to for the charge to slow down. I am curious about the other fault protection. What about the time elapse?? and how is the thermal sensor working out?

If cells gets too hot where you can start to smell the plastic either the sensor is not working or there is none lol. Could be the time elapsed is too long.?? I tested the other 3 cells out of curiosity now, and they easily hit the 1.9v without a struggle or without a fight!!.

because cell #4 was a ongoing battle! lol.
 
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OttaMattaPia

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Greetings Everyone

There have been a few recent threads where the subject of overdischarge of NiZn cells (namely PowerGenix AAs) has been brought up. I have not done any overdischarge tests on these cells, and likely won't have time in the near future to do so. However, I was traveling today and used some idle time on the plane to look into the matter from a more fundamental perspective.

In order for any cell to be considered "overdischarged", the potential of one or both electrodes must change enough that detrimental side chemical reactions are activated. So let's look at the potentials of both the electrode charge/discharge reactions for the NiZn cells. All of the half-cell potentials given below are versus the standard hydrogen electrode (SHE):

Positive (nickel) electrode:
2 NiOOH + 2 H2O + 2 e → 2 Ni(OH)2 + 2 OH- E=0.45 V

Negative (zinc) electrode:
Zn + 2 OH- → Zn(OH)2 + 2 e E=-1.25 V

The difference between the positive and negative electrodes is 0.45-(-1.25)=1.7V. This is the open circuit cell potential.

The two side reactions that one want to avoid during discharge of a NiZn cell are hydrogen evolution on the nickel electrode and oxygen evolution on the zinc electrode. Those reactions are given below for an alkaline (pH=14) solution:

Hydrogen evolution:
2 H2O + 2 e → H2 + 2 OH- E=-0.83 V

Oxygen evolution:
2OH- → 1/2O2 + H2O + 2e E=0.40 V

So, the potential of the nickel electrode must decrease from 0.45V to -0.83V to generate hydrogen, and the zinc electrode must increase from -1.25V to 0.40V to generate oxygen.

I have not confirmed this, but it is almost certain that NiZn cells are cathode-limited, i.e. they have excess zinc. This means that on discharge, the nickel electrode runs out of capacity first and will begin to drop. Hydrogen gas will begin to be generated on the nickel electrode when that electrode drops to -0.83V, which will occur at a cell voltage of (-0.83V-(-1.25V)=0.42V!

So if the cell is discharged below 0.42V and current continues to flow through the cell, then hydrogen is generated at the nickel electrode and the zinc electrode continues to discharge as normal until the zinc capacity is depleted. Once that happens, the zinc potential will rise. If the cell is not in series with other cells, then the zinc potential will rise to -0.83V and the cell voltage will be 0V and nothing further will happen. But if the cell is in a series string and current continues to flow, then the zinc electrode will rise to 0.40V and oxygen will be generated at the zinc electrode simultaneously with hydrogen at the nickel electrode. This will occur at a voltage of -1.23V.

Let's summarize. There are three stages of discharge for a NiZn cell. Stage 1 is normal discharge. Stage 2 starts at a cell voltage of 0.42V when the nickel electrode is depleted and hydrogen evolution occurs. Stage 3 starts at a cell voltage of -1.23V when the zinc electrode is depleted and oxygen evolution occurs concurrently with hydrogen evolution.

I should point out that there are also three stages of discharge in a NiMH cell. Using a similar analysis to that given above, Stage 2 starts at -0.1V and Stage 3 starts at -1.23V (note that Stage 3 starts at the same voltage for both NiMH and NiZn because the same reactions are occurring). So for a NiMH cell, you must drive the cell to a negative voltage in order to initiate overdischarge.

Also, in a NiMH cell, the hydrogen generated in stage 2 is absorbed by the metal hydride alloy, so the internal pressure of the cell stays relatively low. There is no such internal mechanism to absorb hydrogen in a NiZn cell, so hydrogen generated on overdischarge results in an increase in internal pressure. Same for the oxygen generated in Stage 3.

Ok, with me so far? Now let's look at how much hydrogen and oxygen are generated.

The amount of hydrogen and oxygen generated is directly proportion to the current being passed through the cell. During Stage 2 discharge, hydrogen is being generated at a rate of 14ml per amp per minute. During Stage 3 discharge, oxygen is being generated at a rate of 7ml per amp per minute (in addition to the hydrogen generation). So if you are discharging your series string of NiZn cells at 1 amp, and one cell drops to <0.4V, hydrogen is being generated at a rate of 14ml/minute. If that cell is driven into reversal to -1.23V, you are generating 14ml H2 + 7ml O2 per minute (please note that I am assuming 25 degrees C and 1 atm for these gas volume calculations).

You can see that the internal pressure of the cell can rise rapidly if a NiZn cell is overdischarged. The vent may even activate, resulting in loss of water (both liquid electrolyte and as hydrogen and/or oxygen gas). You will note in the positive electrode reaction above that water is consumed in the discharge process, so if you lose water, you lose capacity.

I will now summarize this for those of you whose eyes glazed over my rambling above. Overdischarge of a NiZn cell should start with hydrogen evolution on the nickel electrode when the cell potential drops to <0.42V. This is Stage 2 discharge. If the cell is driven into reversal down to -1.23V, then both hydrogen and oxygen will be generated. This is Stage 3 discharge.

Take home message: keep those NiZn cells above 0.42V!

NiMH cells are more robust with respect to Stage 2 discharge damage because Stage 2 starts at a lower voltage (<-0.1V), and the pressure will not rise because hydrogen is being absorbed by the metal hydride alloy.

Please note that this "paper" exercise was conducted with no testing. These are only estimates of the actual voltages where overdischarge will occur. I have also made the assumption that there is excess zinc in the NiZn cells, and although I think that this is a good assumption, I could be mistaken.

That being said, I believe that the results of this exercise are consistent with the experiences of NiZn users that have been posted on various threads in this forum.

Questions? Discussion?

Hope this was all clear. I kind of did brain dump here.

Cheers,
Battery Guy

Even though it was many years ago, this post lives on and has provided exactly the information I was looking for SEVEN years later.
Thanks!

Long Live the old but great posts!
 

n3eg

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Yes, it is excellent and contains useful info about the "point of no return" being 0.4 volts per cell.

And I also found that I can charge my BPI "2500 mWh" NiZn cells in a Lacrosse while watching them closely.
 
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