Panasonic phasing out of Cylindrical Battery Business

[MarioJP]

Maybe. But will future cells still have the same characteristics, size, and voltage of current 18650 cells we need for our flashlights? Or will they be dumbed-down for consumer use?

Cylindrical cells still and will have their place as that is a universal size. Panasonic sells 21700's by themselves. Would be awesome to upgrade to that size. Also, in a way; this is like a step back to dumb-down. For every device with a battery in it that you no longer want then what?

This is the reason why when i was looking at power banks. Went with a removable 18650 power bank instead of the "consumer version"


I have yet to hear anything being official from Panasonic. Would be a bold move if they do. China will have no problems filling in this gap lol.

 

[flphotog]

Just googled this and the only thing I could find about Panasonic getting out of the business were rumors posted on candle power forums.

 

[IlluminationDomination]

Just googled this and the only thing I could find about Panasonic getting out of the business were rumors posted on candle power forums.

I could not find much on the subject either. At the same time I am NOT doubting what the owner of a Lithium Ion battery co. is saying.

TIME WILL TELL. WE WILL SEE.

Please note: Jon did NOT say Lithium Ion batteries are phasing out.

He said they[Panasonic/Sanyo] Officially are already out but continue to make much smaller quantities of cells for their largest battery pack customers.

In addition he said that it is very difficult to get batteries from these battery pack recipients,,,,,basically has to beg them!

 

[sbslider]

I recently ordered a bunch of 18650 cells which I put in long-term storage in the refrigerator.

What is your recommendation for long term storage of a li-ion rechargeable?

 

[WalkIntoTheLight]

What is your recommendation for long term storage of a li-ion rechargeable?

I bought some common name-brand batteries: Samsung 30Q's, Sanyo GA's, and Sony VTC6's. Ran them through a couple of cycles and made sure they were good and held a full charge for a few days. Then I discharged to 3.75v, sealed them in ziplock bags, and put them in the refrigerator. I'll check on them in a couple of years, and charge them back up to 3.75v if necessary.

From what I've read, this should result in them losing maybe 2% capacity each year. This is far better than the 20% they might lose each year if kept fully charged at room temperature.

I'm hoping they last 10 years in storage, though I'll be okay if they last 5 years and still have good capacity and high discharge ability.

I think lithium-ion cells can last longer than most people think. I have some salvaged Samsung 18650's from a laptop that is around 10 years old. They aren't high drain, but they never were in the first place. They still have about 60% or 70% of their rated capacity, which isn't bad for cells which weren't properly stored.

If you live in the US, you have easier access to quality cells, and probably will for quite some time. Here in Canada, about the last place that will still ship 18650's to me is the U.S., and I have no idea how much longer that will last. Locally, our selection of 18650's suck.

 

[sbslider]

I bought some common name-brand batteries: Samsung 30Q's, Sanyo GA's, and Sony VTC6's. Ran them through a couple of cycles and made sure they were good and held a full charge for a few days. Then I discharged to 3.75v, sealed them in ziplock bags, and put them in the refrigerator. I'll check on them in a couple of years, and charge them back up to 3.75v if necessary.

From what I've read, this should result in them losing maybe 2% capacity each year. This is far better than the 20% they might lose each year if kept fully charged at room temperature.

Thanks for the quick response, I appreciate it! I recently bought some 16340 cells I don't really need for my S1R, and figured that storing them "properly" would be a better option then just leaving them laying around.

 

[IlluminationDomination]

I am not sure who is right. I have heard people say putting L.Ion in the refrigerator can lengthen their life and I have heard others say refrigeration has No benefit.

I think the biggest key is discharging them to ~ 3.60v and storing them in a cool place. Maybe 60F

 

[sbslider]

I suspect the biggest "benefit" of refrigeration is constant temperature. I would be hard pressed to find a place to keep a battery, or anything else, at 60F where I live. For lithium primaries lower temps are definitely better and prevent self discharge and increase of internal resistance.

 

[MarioJP]

I'll still think that there won't be any issues of buying cells in the future and only going to get better as technology progresses.
But anyways.

I know keeping cells in the refrigerator slows down self-discharge, but wouldn't condensation be bad for them?

 

[IlluminationDomination]

I suspect the biggest "benefit" of refrigeration is constant temperature. I would be hard pressed to find a place to keep a battery, or anything else, at 60F where I live. For lithium primaries lower temps are definitely better and prevent self discharge and increase of internal resistance.

My basement which has a Dehumidifier. More like 64F but basically constant.

Mario brought up a good point about condensation. I believe that was the argument Against refrigeration.

 

[SubLGT]

More rumors (from DEC 2017):

...According to etnews (no affiliation), Panasonic has sold most of its battery capacity to Tesla, leaving other companies banging on Samsung SDI, LG Chemicals, and Murata's respective doors...

..."It is impossible to purchase cylindrical batteries within Japan and we were even notified by Panasonic that they are not going to sell cylindrical batteries anymore," said a representative for a Japanese battery distributor. "It has come to a point where we cannot even purchase products from Samsung and LG and even products from Samsung and LG that were produced in China."...

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme...ctory-problems-drive-massive-battery-shortage

 

[IlluminationDomination]

^^^

My guess based on Jon's[L.Ionwholesale] information and post like the one above that I have read, is that they are NOT rumors.

 

[SubLGT]

http://www.businesskorea.co.kr/engl...ung-sdi-expand-secondary-battery-lines-cement

...[March 1, 2018] Samsung SDI will invest several hundreds of billions of Korean won to build a production line for small-sized secondary batteries. It is analyzed that the decision was made while taking into consideration the fact that Japan's Panasonic, the world's largest battery maker, is extremely busy supplying batteries to Tesla for its electric vehicles so cannot meet other demand. The move has been seen as a gambit of Samsung SDI, which has the largest market share in the small-sized battery market, to further shore up its leadership in the market. In the global small-sized battery market, Samsung SDI outclasses Panasonic in the market share...

...In particular, the small-sized cylindrical battery market is enjoying rapid growth. Cylindrical battery shipments, which stood at 1.9 billion units in 2014, were estimated at 3.3 billion units last year, recording a sharp rise. ...

 

[SubLGT]

Looks to me like Panasonic will continue with cylindrical battery production, and will not be exiting that business. They do seem to lack adequate manufacturing capacity to meet global demand. Samsung (and LG) appear to be opening new manufacturing lines in Korea to take advantage of Panasonic's issues, and gain market share.

 

[MarioJP]

That article i did read awhile back. This is a gamble though. So basically this is the same thing that is currently going with graphics cards. Shortage of them due to bitcoin. This just means people like us that buys cells are going to be in 2nd class.

It all comes down to supply and demand and not phasing out. I was scared there for a second lol.

This does however gives China an opportunity to take advantage of the situation at the moment. The worse that can happen is re-branded ultrafire cells XD lol.

But in the end. Tesla is a gamble. Hopefully Panasonic and other good brand manufactures has a plan-B just in case.

 

[ssanasisredna]

China, and Chinese companies, are being very aggressive about becoming the world's leader in battery manufacturing and research.

Just one example:
http://www.scmp.com/tech/science-re...attery-maker-will-soon-surpass-tesla-capacity[/QUOTE
We are 40 years head of China in batteries, don't worry about it.

That's a pretty inaccurate comment.

 

[ssanasisredna]

I'll still think that there won't be any issues of buying cells in the future and only going to get better as technology progresses.
But anyways.

I know keeping cells in the refrigerator slows down self-discharge, but wouldn't condensation be bad for them?

Condensation from what? Condensation happens when warm hits cold, so only happens if you have them open and in the fridge already.

Yes putting them in the fridge makes them last longer, much longer. Arguably you can put them into the freezer portion too. The chemical process will be slowed even more. Just give them time to warm before using.

 

[iamlucky13]

Condensation from what? Condensation happens when warm hits cold, so only happens if you have them open and in the fridge already.

Yes putting them in the fridge makes them last longer, much longer. Arguably you can put them into the freezer portion too. The chemical process will be slowed even more. Just give them time to warm before using.

Depending on the ambient humidity, you can get condensation from the air let in when you open the fridge door.

I doubt it would be an issue though. Battery manufacturers seem not to recommend cold storage (Energizer FAQ), but their concern sounds speculative. Also, with alkaline batteries such as referenced in the link, a user pulling a cold battery out of the freezer and putting it in a high drain device would get terrible performance if it doesn't have time to warm up, and probably think the brand new battery is almost dead - Energizer obviously doesn't want that.

I could hypothetically see leakage current through the condensation slowly draining them, but I've kept alkalines in the fridge for years without apparent issue. When I saw warnings against storing batteries in the fridge, I checked the oldest set in my fridge. I think it was nearly a decade old (spare alkalines go unused for a long time when all you use them for is remotes and other low drain devices), but still read close to 1.6V.

 

[WalkIntoTheLight]

Condensation from what? Condensation happens when warm hits cold, so only happens if you have them open and in the fridge already.

Yes putting them in the fridge makes them last longer, much longer. Arguably you can put them into the freezer portion too. The chemical process will be slowed even more. Just give them time to warm before using.

I put them in freezer bags, along with a bit of silica gel, to prevent condensation if there is any. Even if there isn't any condensation in the refrigerator, it helps when I take them out in a couple of years to test them.

I'm not sure if refrigeration will help or not, but I think the lower temperature should slow down chemical reactions which might age the cells.

 

[Kurt_Woloch]

One question that, surprisingly hasn't come up yet... does this phasing out also affect the Eneloop line of batteries? AA's and AAA's are also cylindrical, aren't they?